A few questions on the vax mandate

[Alf'Omega]

What difference does a mandate make? Didn’t Biden say that 350 million Americans are already vaccinated?

If he did he misspoke. Not quite the same as saying there were airports during the Revolutionary war.

[Res Ipsa]

So we can't force an illegal immigrant to get vaccinated before he enters the US to wait for his asylum claim to be processed but we can force people to get vaccinated or lose their job? Is that right?

Hi Ajax,

It depends on what you mean by “we”. Congress has the Constitutional power to pass a law that would require immigrants to be vaccinated. So, the important question isn’t whether “we” can, but whether the President can. He has to either have the authority assigned to him in article III of the Constitution or by a law passed by Congress.

[Cultellus]

Everyone is welcome. Every opinion is welcome.* Therefore, do not "de-invite" anyone or suggest that they go elsewhere.

[ajax18]

Hi Ajax,

It depends on what you mean by “we”. Congress has the Constitutional power to pass a law that would require immigrants to be vaccinated. So, the important question isn’t whether “we” can, but whether the President can. He has to either have the authority assigned to him in article III of the Constitution or by a law passed by Congress.

Thanks for responding.

So why hasn't Biden forced the 30% of undocumented immigrants who refuse to get the vaccine to either get vaccinated or deported? Do they somehow not pose a danger to the vaccinated in the same way unvaccinated native born Americans do? I personally don't think unvaccinated Americans pose a significant danger to the vaccinated nor those with natural immunity. But following the Biden administrations logic, why do American workers have to be vaccinated to protect vaccinated Americans but not illegal immigrants?

Also do you think private companies will be held liable in court if they uphold Biden's mandate to force employees to vaccinate or get fired if an employee turns out to have a bad reaction to the vaccine?

[Res Ipsa]

Hi Ajax,

It depends on what you mean by “we”. Congress has the Constitutional power to pass a law that would require immigrants to be vaccinated. So, the important question isn’t whether “we” can, but whether the President can. He has to either have the authority assigned to him in article III of the Constitution or by a law passed by Congress.

So why hasn't Biden forced the 30% of undocumented immigrants who refuse to get the vaccine to either get vaccinated or deported? Do they somehow not pose a danger to the vaccinated in the same way unvaccinated native born Americans do? I personally don't think unvaccinated Americans pose a significant danger to the vaccinated nor those with natural immunity. But following the Biden administrations logic, why do American workers have to be vaccinated to protect vaccinated Americans but not illegal immigrants?

I can’t speak for Biden, but I would assume the cost of enforcement has something to do with it. Also, the new mandates will apply to undocumented workers, so some percentage of undocumented persons will be affected by the new mandates. What’s your source for the 30% figure?

[ajax18]

So why hasn't Biden forced the 30% of undocumented immigrants who refuse to get the vaccine to either get vaccinated or deported? Do they somehow not pose a danger to the vaccinated in the same way unvaccinated native born Americans do? I personally don't think unvaccinated Americans pose a significant danger to the vaccinated nor those with natural immunity. But following the Biden administrations logic, why do American workers have to be vaccinated to protect vaccinated Americans but not illegal immigrants?

I can’t speak for Biden, but I would assume the cost of enforcement has something to do with it. Also, the new mandates will apply to undocumented workers, so some percentage of undocumented persons will be affected by the new mandates. What’s your source for the 30% figure?

It's at the end of the article.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021 ... rn-border/

[Res Ipsa]

I can’t speak for Biden, but I would assume the cost of enforcement has something to do with it. Also, the new mandates will apply to undocumented workers, so some percentage of undocumented persons will be affected by the new mandates. What’s your source for the 30% figure?

It's at the end of the article.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021 ... rn-border/

Thanks. So, that’s from an Axios post in mid-June from unidentified sources. It’s for the rate of refusal of prisoners in ICE detention centers. I don’t think that tells us much about the rate of vaccine refusal by undocumented folks who are out in the population. If you’re a prisoner of the US government, I think it’s natural to be suspicious when that government wants to stick a needle in your arm. And undocumented folks can see American citizens getting vaccinated in huge numbers, so they can see that the vaccinations are not some kind of plot against them. I think it would be much more reasonable to assume that the vaccination rates of undocumented immigrants would resemble that of documented immigrants.

The numbers are also three months old, which is a ton of time in terms of the potential for change. What we don’t know is whether the June numbers led ICE to make additional efforts to educate its detainees or otherwise promote vaccination. Has the rate of vaccination in home countries or in Mexico affected the percentage of border crossers who are already vaccinated?

Given all that, I think it’s unreasonable and misleading to use that 30% figure as the rate of vaccine refusal today among undocumented persons living in the US. Given the percentage of the population the undocumented represent, the vaccine refusal problem is overwhelmingly made up of US Citizens. It makes no sense to expend the time and money required to essentially round up all the undocumented folks in America and deport them if they won’t take the vaccine when the numbers say they represent a pretty small part of the problem.

[ajax18]

It's at the end of the article.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021 ... rn-border/

Thanks. So, that’s from an Axios post in mid-June from unidentified sources. It’s for the rate of refusal of prisoners in ICE detention centers. I don’t think that tells us much about the rate of vaccine refusal by undocumented folks who are out in the population. If you’re a prisoner of the US government, I think it’s natural to be suspicious when that government wants to stick a needle in your arm. And undocumented folks can see American citizens getting vaccinated in huge numbers, so they can see that the vaccinations are not some kind of plot against them. I think it would be much more reasonable to assume that the vaccination rates of undocumented immigrants would resemble that of documented immigrants.

The numbers are also three months old, which is a ton of time in terms of the potential for change. What we don’t know is whether the June numbers led ICE to make additional efforts to educate its detainees or otherwise promote vaccination. Has the rate of vaccination in home countries or in Mexico affected the percentage of border crossers who are already vaccinated?

Given all that, I think it’s unreasonable and misleading to use that 30% figure as the rate of vaccine refusal today among undocumented persons living in the US. Given the percentage of the population the undocumented represent, the vaccine refusal problem is overwhelmingly made up of US Citizens. It makes no sense to expend the time and money required to essentially round up all the undocumented folks in America and deport them if they won’t take the vaccine when the numbers say they represent a pretty small part of the problem.

I didn't think you'd have to hunt them down if they had the opportunity to refuse the vaccine. But fair enough on the illegals.

How much danger would you say vaccinated people are in due to being exposed to unvaccinated people?

[Res Ipsa]

Thanks. So, that’s from an Axios post in mid-June from unidentified sources. It’s for the rate of refusal of prisoners in ICE detention centers. I don’t think that tells us much about the rate of vaccine refusal by undocumented folks who are out in the population. If you’re a prisoner of the US government, I think it’s natural to be suspicious when that government wants to stick a needle in your arm. And undocumented folks can see American citizens getting vaccinated in huge numbers, so they can see that the vaccinations are not some kind of plot against them. I think it would be much more reasonable to assume that the vaccination rates of undocumented immigrants would resemble that of documented immigrants.

The numbers are also three months old, which is a ton of time in terms of the potential for change. What we don’t know is whether the June numbers led ICE to make additional efforts to educate its detainees or otherwise promote vaccination. Has the rate of vaccination in home countries or in Mexico affected the percentage of border crossers who are already vaccinated?

Given all that, I think it’s unreasonable and misleading to use that 30% figure as the rate of vaccine refusal today among undocumented persons living in the US. Given the percentage of the population the undocumented represent, the vaccine refusal problem is overwhelmingly made up of US Citizens. It makes no sense to expend the time and money required to essentially round up all the undocumented folks in America and deport them if they won’t take the vaccine when the numbers say they represent a pretty small part of the problem.

Fair enough on the illegals. How much danger would you say vaccinated people are in due to being exposed to unvaccinated people?

Maybe it’s out there, but I haven’t seen figures that would let us quantify that. But I also don’t think the question is a relevant one. It unnecessarily divides folks into categories for what I believe are political, not health, reasons.

There are different ways in which high rates of COVID transmission bites us all in the ass, regardless of vaccination status. One is hospital ICU and ER overruns. Another is the effect on the economy, regardless of lockdowns. When significant numbers of people reduce their outside contacts to avoid a deadly and damaging virus, the overall economy suffers.

So, the relevant goal isn’t protecting the vaccinated. It’s driving the rate of transmission low enough that our hospitals can serve sick people and economic activity can fully recover.

[Cultellus]

Everyone is welcome. Every opinion is welcome.* Therefore, do not "de-invite" anyone or suggest that they go elsewhere.