Do We Really Have It Right?

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Lem
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Lem »

My last post in your thread, ceeboo. It was clear you had a target. People responded to you sincerely, but your character A (female) and Character B (male) example in your early posts was a dead giveaway. I could have called you out then like you are trying to do to me now, but i didn't. Shame on you. And shame on honorentheos for continuing his attack on a woman who objected to sexist comments.

You and posters like honorentheos make the environment here exceedingly difficult for those who acknowledge they are women.

How many posters here do you think hide their gender because of behavior like this? far more thsn you realize. far more. Carry on, rude boys. Carry on. Luckily there are many here not like you, but like virtually every woman who has ever posted here, i am exceedingly tired of the sexism.
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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Lem wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:40 pm
My last post in your thread, ceeboo.
I hope you will reconsider. I think this thread has the potential to be really valuable for all of us.
It was clear you had a target. People responded to you sincerely, but your character A (female) and Character B (male) example in your early posts was a dead giveaway. I could have called you out then like you are trying to do to me now, but i didn't. Shame on you. And shame on honorentheos for continuing his attack on a woman who objected to sexist comments.

You and posters like honorentheos make the environment here exceedingly difficult for those who acknowledge they are women.

How many posters here do you think hide their gender because of behavior like this? far more thsn you realize. far more. Carry on, rude boys. Carry on. Luckily there are many here not like you, but like virtually every woman who has ever posted here, i am exceedingly tired of the sexism.
I find all of this to be unbalanced and unfortunate.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

But, was she correct, balance aside?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
honorentheos
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by honorentheos »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 am
But, was she correct, balance aside?

- Doc
Speaking about events, I think she's likely right I contributed to EA choosing to not participate here when the move happened. I've thought the same thing. I would be surprised if that were the only reason.

She's right that I can be confrontational and often am. I've gone after ceebs before. I question if anyone who paid attention would ascribe it to sexism more than just being dickish given we have already asserted I drove EA off the board. Beastie quit posting, likely because of my confrontation with her assertions that violence by Antifa could be justified so long as one is punching Nazis when one is engaging in violence. Was that targeting her because she was a woman? I have a difficult time accepting that argument precisely because we, you and I, have had our knock down, drag out arguments. We've assumed in this thread I was too confrontational with EA who I assumed was male based in everything he shared. I've disagreed with Chap, Schmo, DrW, IHAQ, MrStak, Kish, Dr Scratch, and any number of male posters, strongly. I wouldn't pretend I am not nor have I been confrontational.

I also find many of those disagreements originate out of people writing people off because Twitter folk had decided they were crap people. I've disagreed and will likely continue to disagree with many posters over many topics where, from my perspective, people have thrown their hands up and tossed other people into the bin of hopeless cases and are therefore fair game to crap on and treat as less than human. I didn't choose to confront Lem about asshole behavior until everyone else had been shouted down. Specifically, it happened when she went after Res when he pointed out a source she shared identified male-male aggression was a product of toxic masculinity as well, and she wasn't having that because how dare he hijack her thread by making it about men? Yeah, I don't regret that. But I don't think it's because I saw her as a woman and a target. It was because she was being an asshole.

Am I a hypocrite? Oh, for sure. But I think where Lem and I disagree about that is over where that hypocrisy manifests. I think I tend to extend respect and a willingness to hear a person out before making a decision on if there is an actual discussion to be had or not. I fail all too often to simply walk away instead of deciding if a person wants to drag others they are also fair game to drag themselves. I've gotten worse over the years, too. And I'm deciding to work on that more now.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Lem wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:40 pm
How many posters here do you think hide their gender because of behavior like this? far more thsn you realize. far more. Carry on, rude boys. Carry on. Luckily there are many here not like you, but like virtually every woman who has ever posted here, i am exceedingly tired of the sexism.
I have a few comments re:sexism.

Yes, there are far more who hide their gender here than reveal it for the exact reason you noted. In my early days online (not on this board), I was often taken for a male poster using this exact screen name on account of my aggressive posting style. And no, you haven't seen me post in that mode here though you may have seen hints of it. Imagine being assigned a gender that aligns you with male posters because you are just as direct as they are, even when posting with a female screen name. Yeah. That was a trip.

How many times on this board, Lem, have you and I commented on the same topic or underlying theme only to be met with "Oh, looks like she got her girlfriend to side with her." :roll:

So...in one online community, I post with a female screen name and males automatically assume I'm male. In this online community two women comment on the same issue they see and all of a sudden they're seen as so weak that they've had to go and get up a girl gang?

It is to laugh.

But yes, it's also tiresome. As if two individual female posters who comment similarly, particularly if the topic or subthread hinges on sexism or sexist remarks, don't have a valid point if more than one comments? It takes two women to disagree with a man? It's both mind boggling and mind blowing. It also makes no logical sense.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Some Schmo »

Xenophon wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:18 pm
It is also very helpful to look hard at your own posting. Are you sure you were as clear as you wanted to be? Can you frame your post or argument in a different way? What about what you put down could have caused a poster to react the way they did?
I had to stop reading the thread and comment on this, because it is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. It's really interesting to me how easy it is to communicate something you don't really mean. There are lots of reasons for this (word choice, mood, omitting an important thought, not enough coffee that morning), but in my case, it's often because I'm trying to say something creatively. I suppose "creativity" is part of the online persona I've been trying to cultivate.

I have gone back and read old posts of mine and been completely taken off guard at how badly I botched the message I was attempting. I'm also often surprised at the way a person has reacted to a post of mine. It takes real discipline to take responsibility for having miscommunicated.

So, it would be completely impossible for others to "get it right" when we aren't necessarily saying what we really mean.

I hope you all know what I mean, here.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Some Schmo »

ceeboo wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:10 am
The last part of your comment has me thinking as well (the part I bolded) because I do this all the time - intentionally or not - I do it. To prove that I do this I need only to consider my board habits - meaning, when I see a post from certain posters, I almost always open it and before I even start reading it my mind is already in a place to deeply consider what I am about to read and I am looking forward to what I am about to read. On the other hand, when I see a post from other certain posters, I may or may not read it and if I do read it my mind is in another place again, before I even begin reading - I expect to read some degree of nonsense, or some amount of vitriol, or some sort of broad condemnation.
Yep. I think it has to do with time/information economy. Our brains provide these kinds of shortcuts to save ourselves the pain of repeating a certain behavior and expecting a different outcome, and because there's so much to read and so little time. It feels like a kind of prejudice, but it really isn't. It's "postjudice," because we've had lots of posts to judge. We may miss out on something good for that reason, but ultimately, we have to make the best use of the time we have.

I never used to put people on ignore thinking that I could miss the odd good post or some important context. These days, however, I've had enough experience with certain posters that ignoring them saves time, since I usually end up ignoring their posts anyway. It was just taking longer. And this way, I find myself going into any of the "unignored" posts consistently open to something new.

And my ignore list is pretty short. Most posters have good and bad days. A poster has to be consistently anti-discussion to make my ignore list. I've had many disagreements with many posters here, but those are often some of the best conversations, as long as we're willing to talk.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by Some Schmo »

Here's another thing I keep thinking about with respect to all communications, not just online ones: us humans have a bad habit of recognizing and acknowledging all of our own nuances, contradictions and complexities, but tend to simplify others, especially if we don't really care for them.
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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:01 am
I have a few comments re:sexism.
I have a few comments regarding sexism as well.

First, as one of the people that have been accused of being a sexist on this thread, I have exactly zero interest or desire to attempt making a defense from this accusation - nor do I have any interest in making any excuses concerning said accusation - The way I see it, the accusation leveled against me is either true or it's not true. If it's true then it is what it is - I am indeed a sexist and I own it. If it's not true then i think it would be rather silly to try to defend/or excuse something that isn't true. A third option simply doesn't exist. So as far as I am concerned, I will continue to consider the accusation and I will land wherever it is that I land on it. For the rest of you, I am more than happy to let each of you land wherever you land on it as well.

Having said that, I wanted to express a few opinions that relate directly to this thread and the many discussions found in this thread - "Do we really have it right?" First, I want to talk about the dangers of making an accusation like calling someone a sexist (or a white supremacist or a homophobe or a xenophobe or a nazi or an anti-Semite, etc) - Among the dangers, this can place a stop sign in the road of discussion - this can divert the discussion - this can alter the discussion - this can deflect from the discussion - this can end the discussions, full stop. After all, who wants to discuss things with a "sexist" or a "racist" or an "anti-Semite?" Rather than discussing things with these kinds of people, perhaps it would be better to throw then in the human waste pile and forget they even exist........ Woke Camp 101, in my opinion. Another potential danger in all of this is how the accused might become very hesitant to engage with someone who has labeled them and placed them in a negative category - They will be forced to weigh the risks involved and will likely decide on not engaging or challenging the ideas/thoughts/opinions of the accuser. Yet another example of how a protective shield can have significant impact on discussions - or prevent discussions from ever taking place.

Sometimes I wonder if these negative labels that are tossed out, are tossed by design and with intent. If they are. they sure provide a great reason to stop engaging and they also seem to provide a protective shield over the one doing the accusing. The accuser, in many instances, becomes almost untouchable and they now have a built in reason to stop discussions - After the accusation has been delivered, they can simply walk away with their protective shield firmly in place. And for the accused? They either try to make a defense (AS I have already said, I have no interest in that) or they leave it where the accusation was made and simply allow each person reading the thread to decide for themselves if the accusations are accurate, or not accurate, or somewhere in the middle (This is where I am choosing to leave it)

So, as far as this thread goes - "Do we really have it right?" - I think accusations from one board member made against another board member is very much a part of the wider discussions taking place here. And these accusations surely can play (and often do play) significant roles in and around online personas as well as how we see people from our side of the screen . I have to believe that accusations, of any flavor, play significant roles in the question "Do we really have it right?"

The floor is yours, if you would like it.
Last edited by ceeboo on Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ceeboo
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Re: Do We Really Have It Right?

Post by ceeboo »

Hey Schmo
Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:58 pm
I have gone back and read old posts of mine and been completely taken off guard at how badly I botched the message I was attempting. I'm also often surprised at the way a person has reacted to a post of mine. It takes real discipline to take responsibility for having miscommunicated.
Bold mine

I think this is another good point to consider as it relates to this discussion as a whole. Your comment about it taking real discipline to take responsibility for miscommunicating is something that really struck me. I know I have failed on this front many times and I think it's something I should probably pay more attention to and work on.
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