New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

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Shulem
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This is NOT what God looks like

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:17 pm
Thank you for this thread, Shulem. I think it illustrates nicely how austere, cold, and even dead this fixation on the lone Christus is. I used to be fascinated by this statue, but it always left me with a slightly uneasy feeling. There is something that is somewhat unforgiving about it. Stark. Bloodless.

Indeed, the face reveals a care-worn concern typical and prevalent of the mortal experience when man faces the uncertainty of the human condition. The face of Christus is less than divine and fails to capture a timeless glance of Almighty God's majestic glory that one might expect when looking at the face of God. Here we are forced to look at knotted hair and a twisted beard that seems oily and unkept. The sad and unbalanced lips are almost shameful. In sum, the sculpture fails to inspire majesty and is a horrible representation of the happiness of God. The starkness of the white stone is the only thing that saves the portrait from falling into utter gloom and a sense of brooding! Suppose the carved medium was in dark diorite stone rather than stark white that is placed under intense lighting and colorful backgrounds in order to make the statue more inviting. Recall the original is posing in front of a shining gold background which is what gives the statue a glorious luster. I'm afraid the Christus is a total failure in depicting the happiness of God and does not reflect a sense of love and wellbeing. It does not inspire me.

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Is there more than meets the eye?

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:17 pm
I understand that others do not feel this way about it, but when I compare these Christus statues with the other great iconic image of the Restoration, the First Vision, I have to say that I am disturbed by the evolution. From a communion between the Divine and the human in the First Vision, we see a lone figure of God, in cold, starkly white, hard stone.

Yes, it is a lone figure of God -- ever frozen in time.

I get the sense that Christus is pleading for help, someone to rescue him from the pitiful condition in which he has been forced to endure. He appears drunken, unkept, unwashed, and sporting a half naked man-chest as if he's trying to make an impression to the ladies nearby who might accept his advances. Frankly, in my view, the portrait seems somewhat lewd or at least suggestive. I honestly have to wonder if Bertel Thorvaldsen was crafting subliminal messaging of a sexual nature into his conception of Christ. I think he was! Perhaps, there is more to it than meets the eye. I'm not saying that it's bad; I'm merely expressing my view and opinion that there may be more going on here than we realize. There may be sexual undertones to Thorvaldsen's piece.

Here are some other fine works crafted by Bertel Thorvaldsen that prove his willingness to explore the beauty of nudity expressed in acceptable artform of the day.

These are not crude nudes. They are NOT pornographic. They are FINE WORKS OF ART, crafted by the same artist who made the original "inspired" Christus! Behold the beauty of the human body which is what Bertel Thorvaldsen was expressing in his art:

Bertel Thorvaldsen wrote:
ImageImage

Jason with the Golden Fleece, Thorvaldsen's first masterpiece and Venus with apple

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Cupid, from Thorvaldsens Museum (1897–1899 after the original plaster 1814)

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Re: New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

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I'm a big fan of Thorvaldsen's Christus statue. It always fills me with awe and reverence.


I'm not sure He likes being trapped in a bell jar. The visitor center podium always seemed more appropriate.
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Re: New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

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Re: New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

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Moksha wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:43 am
I'm a big fan of Thorvaldsen's Christus statue. It always fills me with awe and reverence.


I'm not sure He likes being trapped in a bell jar. The visitor center podium always seemed more appropriate.

Thanks for chiming in, in a conciliatory manner, Moksha. If it weren't for you, this thread would never have existed seeing you got the whole thing started on the old (defunct) discussion board that has been left in limbo.

Yes, the statue at the Salt Lake Visitors' Center is an imposing and impressive statue no matter what one thinks of the Church or the use of graven images for religious purposes. I would like to point out though, that your expression of "awe" and "reverence" is exactly what I believe Moses was trying to avoid when he tendered the Second Commandment in forbidding the children of Israel in making graven images to represent deity -- any deity, whether Jehovah or some other god in which the Israelites were forbidden to worship.

You'll agree that IF Moses had wanted his followers to show "awe" and "respect" towards graven images of Jehovah, then such images would have been made and fashioned and we would have evidence today to show that the Law of Moses made an exception to the rule when it comes to reverencing the God of Israel. But that is not the case! That is my point, Moksha. Moses did NOT want his people showing those kinds of feelings towards idols, wherein affection and reverence, in associating a graven image with the likeness of a living God -- the divine Spirit in heaven. That is exactly what Moses was trying to avoid!

Moksha, I'm afraid you would not have made good disciple of Moses. But don't let that worry you, my little black and white, friend.

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Re: New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:17 pm
It also is, quite frankly, a terrifying re-envisioning of Jesus. If you look at images of Jesus in other sects of Christianity, Jesus is so often depicted as the infant, the suffering man, communing with his apostles, etc. But this image, which has now been elevated above every other image in Mormondom, takes almost all the humanity out of Jesus, the only remaining trace being the faint lines of the wounds.

You just brought up a big point, Kishkumen! There is an infinite difference between making graven images or statues of the mortal Jesus compared to making them depict the immortal Jesus! The latter is strictly forbidden under the Law of Moses, written by the finger of God, the Second Commandment.

Infant Jesus being carved in stone lying in a manger, or the suffering man is entirely a different concept than attempting to depict the resurrected and glorified Christ floating about the stars as if he's about to make a planet -- with reference to the Salt Lake Visitors' Center. The distinction or difference between the making of an image of mortal Christ compared to immortal Christ is infinitely marked by the nature of what both represent. I can imagine Peter and Paul suffering a manger scene in a visitors' center of their own making, but not a statue made to represent the glorified Christ in heaven. There is nothing in the New Testament gospels or epistles that lead me to think the apostles would approve of that practice. The Jews never would have tolerated such a scene. Isn't that right, professor David Bokovoy?

The wounds depicted in the hands and feet of the Christus are unnecessary. Nail holes in human flesh are unpleasant to say the least! Those markings serve as scars forever etched in stone and contradict the perfection of absolute health and beauty one can imagine in the body of a Perfect Man-god. This subject, however, is a separate topic by itself that deserves greater attention.
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A Work of Art

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:17 pm
As a Roman historian, I also cannot help but note that the statue is called the Christus. On the one hand, we know that Christus Consolator was a statue that was carved by Bertel Thorvaldsen for the new Church of Our Lady in Copenhagen, which replaced the cathedral that was destroyed by a British naval bombardment during the Napoleonic Wars. In its original context, and in the company of the apostolic statues Thorvaldsen also made, the Christus means something quite different than it does in and LDS context.

The statue is truly a work of art crafted by an amazing artist. I prefer the piece be placed in a museum rather than behind and atop the altar and pulpit of a church. The placement of the statue in the Church of our Lady is in effect a Christian idol -- the point of focus wherein one may contemplate God. So also is the one in the Salt Lake Visitors' Center. In its planet making setting, it inspires reverence and awe, which is exactly the kind of thing Moses forbade. It's one thing to talk about Jehovah creating the earth and quite another showing him doing it. The latter is simply out of our grasp.

Today, the Church has gone all out in promoting this single image and raised it to the highest possible level, making it the official Church Logo, and embracing it as a representation of the Living Christ depicted in icy-cold stone.
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Re: New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

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Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:17 pm
So, we need, on the other hand, to keep in mind that this image entered the LDS canon of iconography in 1950, when apostle Stephen Richards purchased an 11-foot copy and presented it to David O. McKay. At that point the statue must be treated in part as an image of post-WWII American might and imperialism. Its appropriation by the Church speaks to the new wealth and global power of America. A similar thing happened with Greek statues in Ancient Rome. Romans like Cicero write about how they would shop for statues in Greece, and then bring what was once a sacred image in a temple home to Italy and set it up in the corner of a room in a villa, where the master of the place would walk around attired like a Greek philosopher and sporting a beard he could stroke pensively--a regular Roman Socrates.

I too, find it fascinating how the Mormons appropriated a work of art from their greatest competitor: Traditional Christians! It all seems rather ironic. Why not make their own statue commissioned by a specially appointed artist of the Church? The Church has ever maintained a universal apostasy in the Christian world, and moreover, a false system of worship exists in the traditional Christian church; yet apostles of Mormonism enter an apostate Church and adopt for their own purposes a graven image and bring it back as some kind of trophy! How ironic is that? The whole thing seems rather bizarre to me. It almost seems like a desperate move on behalf of the Church to find acceptance from the Christian world in convincing them to finally agree that Mormons really are Christians.

I think this comparison works:

1. Pinocchio wanted to be a real boy.
2. The Mormons wanted to be accepted as real Christians.
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Re: New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

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Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:17 pm
We also need to keep in mind that this statue was brought to Salt Lake City when the LDS Church was still an overtly racist and segregationist organization, and some of its powerful apostles were wringing their hands over the "negro" (their ugly term, cited for historical accuracy) and the communists. It was not uncommon in that day for Mormons to entertain British Israelism and theories about the Nordic retreat of the Lost Tribes through which early Mormon converts came to represent the calling out of the Blood of Israel--the whites of northwestern Europe. It is thus no surprise that some Mormons were Nazi sympathizers and believed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. We are talking about a full immersion in the nastiest and most conspiratorial racial theories of the day.

Indeed, only a white and delightsome figure of Jesus would do. The white stone with the golden backdrop surely must have caught the eye of Elder Steven L. Richards (First Counselor to David O. McKay). The white and delightsome stone image of Jesus coupled with lustrous golden surroundings must have set off a flurry of emotions in wondering how it could be that a church NOT of the Lamb (1 Nephi 14) could possess such a marvelous image. And all that gold! Look at the gold! What better way to invite people to Christ than to offer this kind of representation.

But this Jesus looked special, and most important: He is white -- almost as the driven snow, but not quite -- but never fear, the Mormons can improve upon that, and they did with their even whiter version!

Image


Look at us. We're Christians too.

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Re: New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

Post by Moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:28 pm
I would like to point out though, that your expression of "awe" and "reverence" is exactly what I believe Moses was trying to avoid when he tendered the Second Commandment in forbidding the children of Israel in making graven images to represent deity -- any deity, whether Jehovah or some other god in which the Israelites were forbidden to worship.
I doubt a nomadic people could have created such a statue or even a golden calf. I suspect these are references taken from the culture when they were in later Babylonian captivity.

I don't really buy into that graven image thing either. Great art can inspire great feelings and great feelings can be part of our religious and spiritual experience.

If the Brethren placed a replica of Michelangelo's The Pieta in the visitor's center, it would gain an appreciation by the members. Dr. Peterson would have something positive to say about it. What would your take on that artwork be, Shulem?

by the way, keep in mind that BYU banned Rodin's The Thinker and The Kiss because they were not wearing garments. Some special exemption would need to be made for Jesus' lack of clothing in The Pieta.
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