The Beginning of the End of Mormonism?

[Jersey Girl]

Note to myself, just ignore this. Faith/usefulness.

So..let me see if I can get started on something here. When I think of faith, I don't think about how it is useful to me. Schmo used the word "utility" pretty much the same thing. I'm trying to think of what utility or usefulness I think faith is to me...and I can't come up with it. I'll try to explain and if anyone just read what I wrote to RI about my going into the introspection hole that's probably what will happen. I don't mean to come off as egocentric, I'm just going inside of myself trying to examine what my thinking is, how it relates to my behaviors, and why.

So faith.

When as in Hebrews the Bible states that Faith is the evidence of things unseen...Gunnar (maybe Schmo and others) are looking at that and saying it's looking for evidence that doesn't exist because they are thinking about empirical evidence where I'm not thinking about that at all.

When I think about faith and that statement in particular, I am thinking --let me try to rewrite it--Faith is the evidence of the unknown outcome.

So...I think that God speaks to us through the Word (Bible), others, and circumstances. I also think that Jesus was the living word of God but I don't want to mix up those concepts here.

Explain: When I think I've got the tap on the shoulder from God (I become aware of a need or a job) my first reaction is outright rejection. You've got the wrong person. I can't do that. I don't know how to do that. I don't want to get involved. I don't even want to try to do that. Why even consider a schmuck like me I'm not cut out for that. Basically, get away from me and pick someone else, okay?

I think if you take a stroll through the Bible you will see something like that played out in the stories of others only there are definitely times when the person takes God at his word and off they go. Over the years, I've learned to "off I go"...and that is how faith has developed in my life. Though there are times when I still turn away, ultimately I see a thing and I jump in.

Why: I've learned to jump in even when I feel unprepared because I have faith that God will put me in places and present me with opportunities where I will develop whatever I need as I'm getting involved. Kind of like Cuomo's staff member when she said about the pandemic...we're building the plane while we're flying it. That's why that phrase resonates with me so much and why I still call it to mind. It so illustrates what I think goes on with me.

If faith has any utility in my life at all...it makes me do things (oh, the leap of faith thing) that I don't think I can do, that I don't even want to do half the time...yet, I end up doing them anyway and more often than not, the outcome ends up being something of value. I'm not the value, the outcome is the value. I'm a cog in the wheel of that outcome.

Introspection: Maybe I can cut this short if I label it. If you guys knew me I dunno, when I was in my teens I would never be able to say this about myself because back then, I was just on automatic and never thought for one single second about what my abilities were or where they came from because I thought I had no ability at all. But at this stage in the game I can say this about myself. I know I have the ability to pick up on "vibes" (cues) I get from other people. I know I can "read" people even people who are only available to me in writing like they are on this board. in real life, I take in voice tones, I read facial expressions. On the board, I know when something is wrong with the other guy.

Example from a good 20 years ago: Gunnar will recall this. Nigel UK wrote a post on the board. I was the ONLY poster on the board who saw it for what it was. It was a suicide note. I lit up that board like a Christmas tree and made others take note of it. Nagging them. Yelling at them to LOOK at this! LOOK at what he's telling us! I kept saying "This guy is checking out!" We ended up working on that situation all night until the next morning. I had a timer on the computer I was using because it belonged to the kids and we had parental controls on it. When it shut down on me, I had to wait all night long--praying for all I was worth for hours, until it turned on again around 5:30 a.m. and when I could get online I saw what the others had done and how everyone contributed to the effort to the point where Nevo had gotten the cops to Nigel's home and saved him. Then Nigel wrote the most beautiful post about his experience, described his suicide attempt in detail, I think I can quote parts of it to this day...the length of hose had been cut...he was going to gas himself in his car. Then he looked at his children on the way out the door to the garage, and that's when the cops showed up and stopped him. I would give almost anything to see a copy of that post again. He mentioned me and it just brought me to my literal knees.

Where does that come from? It comes from a wound in childhood. It comes from having to pay careful attention to adults around me because my survival depended on them. It comes from "recording" all kinds of information about people and doing it for so long, to the point where I do it without even thinking about it.

I often say that I learned to look at all the challenges I had in childhood as tools. Tools that give me insight to others, the urge to help when I see a need, the driving force that propels me to help...I see those as God making use of me--not me making use of God.

Or is that simply an expression of human development where you grow, change, respond to challenge, and develop confidence and if that is so, why are there so many adults who never seem to develop in those ways? Why are there so many adults who have never been able to overcome low self esteem? I don't know...coincidence? Maybe...

I apologize. I knew I would do this and I did it anyway in spite of my denials. You've got at least parts of my inner self here. Do with it what you will.

But...if who I am, what I think about myself, my life in relation to God helps improve the life course of the folks I encounter in life, I do think that the lesson I have learned is that how I experience the world is consistent with what I see as the ultimate message of the Bible in that the greatest thing we have to give each other is love.

My brain is now fried. God I'm a complete idiot. But maybe not without utility!

[ajax18]

Why: I've learned to jump in even when I feel unprepared because I have faith that God will put me in places and present me with opportunities where I will develop whatever I need as I'm getting involved. Kind of like Cuomo's staff member when she said about the pandemic...we're building the plane while we're flying it. That's why that phrase resonates with me so much and why I still call it to mind. It so illustrates what I think goes on with me.

Mormon leaders have said that a testimony comes in the bearing of it. This also makes me think of the scripture John 7:17, "if any man will do his will, he will know of the doctrine, whether it be of God or whether I speak of myself."

I remember when I went through my belief crisis. I heard this old hymn and nearly cried it was so spiritually moving. There's no empirical evidence to any of the claims in this hymn. It's pure spiritual truth just as you might recognize truth in mathematics. Maybe it just seems kooky to a never Mormon. But to me the infinity that this hymn refers to is the only thing that makes sense.

If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
"No man has found 'pure space,'
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place."

The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.

[Res Ipsa]

Thanks for writing that, Jersey Girl. Some of the most interesting conversations in my life have consisted of shared introspection. I think faith and religion are lived experience, so almost by definition talking about faith and religion is mostly introspection.

I’ve been puzzling over how I define religion. In general, I think of my brain as a story-telling organ. Part of that story is what I would describe as my identity — the notion that there is a real Res Ipsa with certain characteristics, including being an individual separate and independent from the real Jersey Girl, having free will, etc. Everything I think I know is a story told by my brain. And the most important thing about the story is not whether it is true, but that it makes sense to whatever part of my brain’s function thinks I am Res Ipsa.

Religion is a subset of the possible stories my brain could tell. That subset is stories that answer the question “why do I exist?” by referring to an entity of some flavor that has a purpose that explains my existence. Usually, it’s a supernatural entity of some type, but I’m not sure that’s a necessary part of my definition.

That would be my first crack at a definition. I’m sure it needs some refining so that it’s clear what’s in and what’s out. But I think it’s not a bad start.

So, when I read what you wrote, I see your religion — your story— as helping you do things you never imagined yourself doing, and helping people in ways you would not have anticipated. And so I see it as having value. And that value is independent of whether your story is an accurate representation of the world.

I’m not sure if that makes sense, but it’s the story my brain is telling me, and it makes sense to me.

[Res Ipsa]

*Sic et Non enters the chat*

Sorry, Cam, I don’t understand what you mean.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

*Sic et Non enters the chat*

Sorry, Cam, I don’t understand what you mean.

Oh, I was trying to be clever (and failed, of course) since the blog’s proprietor and his buddies complain quite a bit that people don’t understand what faith or religion is, but they’re very sure of their position. I was making a joke that you should appeal to their expertise for answers.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

RI I will get back to you on the content of your post. If you ask me what religion is, my immediate response (without thinking much about it) would be that religion is a man made construct consisting of rites and rituals practiced by a culture of people who hold similar beliefs about a God.

I see religion as an organization. I don't think I've thought about it much beyond organized religion.

Maybe I am an adherent of disorganized religion. That is probably more accurate than I care to admit!

[Res Ipsa]

Oh, I was trying to be clever (and failed, of course) since the blog’s proprietor and his buddies complain quite a bit that people don’t understand what faith or religion is, but they’re very sure of their position. I was making a joke that you should appeal to their expertise for answers.

- Doc

Got it. Thanks!

[Res Ipsa]

RI I will get back to you on the content of your post. If you ask me what religion is, my immediate response (without thinking much about it) would be that religion is a man made construct consisting of rites and rituals practiced by a culture of people who hold similar beliefs about a God.

I see religion as an organization. I don't think I've thought about it much beyond organized religion.

Maybe I am an adherent of disorganized religion. That is probably more accurate than I care to admit!

That’s not a bad working definition. I think of religion as being broader than organized religion, but the distinction may not be that important.

[Some Schmo]

If faith has any utility in my life at all...it makes me do things (oh, the leap of faith thing) that I don't think I can do, that I don't even want to do half the time...yet, I end up doing them anyway and more often than not, the outcome ends up being something of value. I'm not the value, the outcome is the value. I'm a cog in the wheel of that outcome.

I think the ultimate outcome here is great, but this is the very essence of religious thought that drives me up the freaking wall.

It's misattribution. Why do people think they need to look externally for an explanation for doing something they were capable of doing all along, but just needed a kick in the ass? The voice telling you to do something is coming from within.

Jersey Girl, my whole life is a series of jumping into things I don't know how to do yet. My attitude is that if other humans have done it, I should be able to as well. Is that what you think of as faith? If that's faith, I'm one of the most faithful people in the world. I love trying new things; challenging myself.

Maybe it's my experience with public speaking that makes me feel this way. The only time I ever "dreaded" public speaking was when I was young, and the primary reason I was scared was because I was unprepared. Once I learned to prepare and people started telling me I was good at it, the fear completely disappeared. This is a regular pattern that can be applied to just about anything: I'm cautious to do something, prepare myself, try it, and the fear disappears.

There's no faith in that equation. Just confidence resulting from experience.

[Some Schmo]

That’s not a bad working definition. I think of religion as being broader than organized religion, but the distinction may not be that important.

I think of religion in two ways: organized religion, the narrow definition, and habits resulting from faulty information, the broad definition. Usually when I use the word religion, I'm speaking of the latter.