Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

why me wrote:
Runtu wrote:
I'm not sure what to make of Joseph's belief in God. Obviously, he wasn't afraid that he'd face any kind of judgment for what he did. He was not, it seems, a man wracked by remorse.


Not true. Joseph Smith was not a happy go lucky guy. He knew his calling and he took it seriously. He also felt all the pain and glory of his calling. Read Bushman and see the man. Joseph Smith also had an understanding of god and his commitment to god on earth. Thus, his prayer to god about the correct church. He wanted a god-fearing life. Instead, he became a prophet based on revelation and visions. It just goes to show that one needs to be careful about prayer. God can answer in strange ways.


I'm not sure what your point is here, why me. I've read Bushman (and Jan Shipps and Dan Vogel and Fawn Brodie and Donna Hill) and don't really see the "god fearing" you see. To me, he lived life by the seat of his pants and came up with whatever he needed to survive. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I am saying that I don't see the same Joseph that you do.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_grampa75
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Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _grampa75 »

marg wrote:This morning I was reading from the book Pomeroy Tucker (1802 - 1870)
Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism
which is on Dale's site @ http://solomonspalding.com/docs1/1867TucA.htm and I came to the section which I've quoted below from p18.

Mr. Tucker mentions the Smith family were atheists. I don't know much about the entire Smith family, but I've also thought that J. Smith must have been an atheist, possibly a deist. He certainly didn't seem to believe in an interfering God. The reason I think this is because he didn't seem to fear a God for his behavior of extramarital sex. It's obvious he had a penchant for extra marital sex given the Fanny affair and what better way to continue than under the ruse that it is something God wants him to do much to his despair. Polmeroy Tucker, a contemporary of Smith who lived in the same town and observed Smith and family thought the family were atheists. As Tucker pointed out, and what is commonly said, Smith did believe all sects were false. But if we take that further it is likely Smith also believed the Bible was false. Tucker points out that Smith thought the Bible was a fable. by the way...I like atheists. I'm not so sure about atheists who speak on behalf of a God though.

(P 18. Polmeroy Tucker's book: Protracted revival meetings were customary in some of the churches, and Smith frequented those of different denominations, sometimes professing to participate in their devotional exercises. At one time he joined the probationary class of the Methodist church in Palmyra, and made some active demonstrations of engagedness, though his assumed convictions were insufficiently grounded or abiding to carry him along to the saving point of conversion, and he soon withdrew from the class. the final conclusion announced by him was, that all sectarianism was fallacious, all the churches on a false foundation, and the Bible a fable.

In unbelief, theory and practice, the Smith family, all as one, so far as they held any definable position upon the subject of religion -- basing this conclusion upon all the early avowals and other evidences remembered, as well as upon the subsequent developments extant -- were unqualified atheists. Can their mockeries of Christianity, their persistent blasphemies, be accounted for upon any other hypothesis?

When I read anything about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ I first read all the prophecies foretelling that restoration. Daniel lets us know the very day the Kingdom of God would come to earth, which was when the tenth kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar would be established, which was 1828 while Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon. St. Peter said, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restitution of ALL THINGS ever spoken of by all the holy prophets since the world began." If anything at all had to be restored so as to allow the kindom of God to come, wouldn't it seem that something must have been missing. But it wasn't just one or two things that needed to be restored, it was ALL THINGS. It puzzels me why more people can't see the truths that fill the Book of Mormon and our other scriptures. I know the Church of Jesus Christ is the restored Kingdom of God that was prophesied to come to get the earth ready for the second coming of the Lord. "And he who will not believe that prophet, shall be destroy from off the face of the earth."

grampa75
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Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

grampa75 wrote:When I read anything about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ I first read all the prophecies foretelling that restoration. Daniel lets us know the very day the Kingdom of God would come to earth, which was when the tenth kingdom from Nebuchadnezzar would be established, which was 1828 while Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon. St. Peter said, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restitution of ALL THINGS ever spoken of by all the holy prophets since the world began." If anything at all had to be restored so as to allow the kindom of God to come, wouldn't it seem that something must have been missing. But it wasn't just one or two things that needed to be restored, it was ALL THINGS. It puzzels me why more people can't see the truths that fill the Book of Mormon and our other scriptures. I know the Church of Jesus Christ is the restored Kingdom of God that was prophesied to come to get the earth ready for the second coming of the Lord. "And he who will not believe that prophet, shall be destroy from off the face of the earth."

grampa75


Could you help me out by listing the 10 Kingdoms from Nebuchadnezzar?
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _Jason Bourne »

What do you mean by "religious" Bond?


That the family believed in God and were pursuing a judeo Christian tradition as part of their life.


Do you think J. Smith believed in an interfering sort of God?


Yes.

The reason I think he didn't is because he knew darn well, it was all a hoax, just like his treasure seeking hoaxes. He appreciated the credulity of people
.


Your conclusion lack evidence and is mere supposition on your part. The historical record demonstrates the Smith's were actively religious and seeking God. You THINK Smith was knew it was all a hoax but there is also the pious fraud theory for non believers and of course believers think he was authentic.


His institution of polygamy was another tip off, being so convenient following his being caught by his wife with Fanny.


Again simple supposition on your part. By the way, polygamy was not instituted till a number of years after Fanny Alger and it seems to be prospectively applied to that situation as an after thought.


If his father was a deist, what gives you the impression he wasn't?



The evidence does not suggest it. Joseph Smith Snr by the way dropped his deist views after the restoration.

This I read today on the Spalding thread written by Dale:

IN 1830 the Rev. David Marks was traveling through western New York and there he heard of the recent publication of a very strange book. When Marks heard the claims being made for this book -- that it told the hitherto unpublished story of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas -- it occurred to him that the book, if true, might help answer some questions he had been pondering about the origin of the ancient earthworks of the Ohio Valley. In his 1831 account of his encounter with that strange book, Rev Marks says:


"When I was in Ohio, I had quite a curiosity to know the origin of the numerous mounds and remains of ancient fortifications that abound in that section of the country; but could not find that any thing satisfactory was known on the subject. Having been told that the 'Book of Mormon' gave a history of them, and of their authors, some desire was created in my mind to see the book, that I might learn the above particulars. I wished to read it, but could not, in good conscience, purchase a copy, lest I should support a deception; so they lent me one, and I read two hundred and fifty pages; but was greatly disappointed in the style and interest of the work... I thought it probably had been written originally by an infidel, to see how much he could impose on the credulity of men, and to get money. Yet, I expected they would make converts; for there are many people who are fond of new things; and there is scarcely any system so absurd as to obtain no advocates. "


Rev. Mark had a good point. There are ideas so absurd in the Book of Mormon that one would think as he suggests "it probably had been written originally by an infidel, to see how much he could impose on the credulity of men, and to get money."



What ideas are so absurd to you? Have you read the Book of Mormon?

As far as Lucy Smith attending church being an indication of being very religious, many women do attend for social and family reasons irrespective of religious beliefs. I believe she had a brother who was a Seeker who started up a communal sect in Canada. So not only was she aware of the notion of opposing all current religious groups and starting up one's own, but Seekers seem to me to be a unique sort. A leader of one would be the sort to be skeptical of all religious claims, similar to a deist. So she has that background in her family


This is rather non sensical. Read her history. She did not attend for social reason only and you have nothing to indicate that at all. If, as I have pointed out before, you were even familiar or read in some of the history if the Smith's and the founding of the LDS Church you would not make such unsubstantial remark. Lucy was quiet religious, believed in miracles and even claims to have experienced on regarding the healing of a child.
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Post by _gramps »

grampa75 wrote:

I know the Church of Jesus Christ is the restored Kingdom of God that was prophesied to come to get the earth ready for the second coming of the Lord. "And he who will not believe that prophet, shall be destroy from off the face of the earth."


Ouch! You mean there won't be a place to hide at all. Scary! Thanks for the warning (judgment). What to do, what to do?
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
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_marg

Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _marg »

grampa75 wrote:
When I read anything about the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ I first read all the prophecies foretelling that restoration.


The fact that you added a number to your name suggests to me you used "gramp"'s moniker deliberately. I hope not. Whether you did it delberatelyor not, I think it would be considerate of you if you changed it so as to reduce confusion.
_marg

Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _marg »

previously I wrote: The reason I think he didn't is because he knew darn well, it was all a hoax, just like his treasure seeking hoaxes. He appreciated the credulity of people[/quote].


Jason Bourne wrote: Your conclusion lack evidence and is mere supposition on your part. The historical record demonstrates the Smith's were actively religious and seeking God. You THINK Smith was knew it was all a hoax but there is also the pious fraud theory for non believers and of course believers think he was authentic.


You appear to lack an appreciation of the concept of reasoning...applied to evidence. There is plenty of evidence J. Smith knew his treasure seeking was a con, he admitted it to his father in law and that was witnessed by a friend. But besides evidence of witnesses there is common sense evidence, that con men appreciate their own cons. One would have to be extremely credulous, (lack good reasoning ability) to believe that Smith with his treasure seeking didn't appreciate his own cons. And for that matter that any con man doesn't appreciate his own cons. in my opinion the evidence indicates Smith didn't fear a god. And if that is the case, he wouldn't have believed in an interfering sort of God such as a Christian one. Given that he publicly admitting to rejecting all other religous groups as false, given that his behavior indicated no fear of God, given that he spoke on behalf of God and would know full well no god spoke to him, given that he was a con man and that it's obvious to any objective rational individual that the Book of Mormon and the whole Mormon scheme was a hoax, I reason from that he was probably a deist...perhaps even an atheist. And Mr. Tucker, I believe the editor of the local newspaper in Smith's town, who also lived in the same town and was very knowledgable about Smith seemd to think the same.


Due to time constraint I will have to look at the rest of your post at some later time.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _Jason Bourne »

You appear to lack an appreciation of the concept of reasoning...applied to evidence. There is plenty of evidence J. Smith knew his treasure seeking was a con, he admitted it to his father in law and that was witnessed by a friend. But besides evidence of witnesses there is common sense evidence, that con men appreciate their own cons. One would have to be extremely credulous, (lack good reasoning ability) to believe that Smith with his treasure seeking didn't appreciate his own cons. And for that matter that any con man doesn't appreciate his own cons. in my opinion the evidence indicates Smith didn't fear a god. And if that is the case, he wouldn't have believed in an interfering sort of God such as a Christian one. Given that he publicly admitting to rejecting all other religous groups as false, given that his behavior indicated no fear of God, given that he spoke on behalf of God and would know full well no god spoke to him, given that he was a con man and that it's obvious to any objective rational individual that the Book of Mormon and the whole Mormon scheme was a hoax, I reason from that he was probably a deist...perhaps even an atheist. And Mr. Tucker, I believe the editor of the local newspaper in Smith's town, who also lived in the same town and was very knowledgable about Smith seemd to think the same.




I have no problem reasoning. My reasons are based on year of study and dozens of books. None have come to the conclusion you have about Smith's belief's in God. As for Tucker, he like other thought the Smith's fine people till the faunding events of Mormonism came to be.

On top of that one must read what the man wrote as well. Even if he was a con his writings reflect a pious con. HAve you read the D&C? I see you ignored my question about the Book of Mormon? The D&C contains sections that has God scolding Joseph anf threatening to take away his calling. Not what one would expect from one who believe in a non interferring God.

Really marg, what have you read about LDS history, Smith, his writings, sermons and scripture? This has great bearing on your speculative "reasoning.
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

Apparently as usual you know more than anyone else here about everything else cause you have read all of those books and done all of that studying. We are all just stupid to you Jason so why do you even try.
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
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Re: Joseph Smith believed all sects were false

Post by _marg »

Jason Bourne wrote: I see you ignored my question about the Book of Mormon?


So let's look at your questions. "What ideas are so absurd to you? Have you read the Book of Mormon? "

I'm wondering why you are asking me these questions. Are you suggesting to me, that you don't appreciate any ideas in the Book of Mormon as absurd..magical thinking sort of stuff? Do you think that it's necessary to have read the Book of Mormon from beginning to end in order to appreciate any ideas as absurd if pointed out?

While I'm at it I have a few more questions. Do you think J. Smith was a sincere con man with his night time head in the hat treasure seeking activity. By that I mean to you think he truly believed he had the capability of finding treasure underground by the manner he employed? How long did J. Smith conduct this night time treasure seeking activity for? Do you think his family and friends didn't appreciate it was a con? Do you think there might have been some other benefit besides payment from his marks for this treasure seeking activity? Did Smith ever come clean about this activity being a con..if so to whom?
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