Politics, The Chosen Land, and Why we Fight

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_barrelomonkeys
_Emeritus
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Coggins7 wrote:
What do you all think about the current state of affairs... has democracy lost to capitalism?

Are the wealthy few, running the country?

Along these lines, I also reread an article by Nibley, Breakthroughs I Would Like to See, where he argues that the church must return to the Law of Consecration in order to prepare for Zion. He uses the D&C to support his understanding that this law is required by all Saints.

in my opinion, the church seems to be continually moving toward more power, money, eliticism, wealth, etc. etc. etc. My observation is that there is a move away from the idea of communal living. Is the Law of Consecration no longer taught as something that will exist? Is Nibley's interpretation of the D&C wrong?

Any thoughts?


1. We do not live in a democracy. If we did, however, it is far more likely that Capitalism would be destroyed by democracy than the other way around.

2. Capitalism is liberty in the economic sphere; it is economic freedom. The general term for this is property rights, and they are of the unalienable sort. Without them, the rest of the rights in the Constitution are utterly moot.


3. Nibley was an economic illiterate who's views of the possibilities of human social organization were quite naïve, although he was brilliant in his sphere of expertise. The question is, of course, what do we mean when we say "law of consecration"? What do we mean by "communal living" and do we really understand what we're getting into when we pine away for it?

There is an inviolable and unequivocal tension between the collective and the individual and always will be until all men are angels. Until that time, "communal" living, without the deep, direct, and unfettered oversight of the Holy Spirit will end where all such experiments have always ended, in failure or human disaster. To the extent the original United Order worked, it worked to the extent free agency and property were respected.

However, that situation was a situation of naked survival in an unforgiving desert that had to be built up and made productive. There is no reason to believe that the United Order practiced then was in any manner fully revealed, or that it was revealed in a manner consistent with how it might be revealed if brought back into practice at the present time.


I think I like Coggins! :D
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Ray A wrote:I believe America is the greatest and most influential nation on earth, and no number of Benedict Arnolds will change my opinion.

Ray why don't you move to the States?
_ajax18
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Post by _ajax18 »

TD how are you proposing that this communal living would ever be accomplished. For the Church to bring back the law of consecration, would seem like little more than utter chaos to me. Are we going to divide our goods equally with the third world? I can see how communal living might not be so bad in a small, agrarian, community, but at the entire Church inside a modern world? I don't think I would like the results. Maybe it does have to be brought back, but if it is, it looks like very bad times indeed.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Loquacious Lurker
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Post by _Loquacious Lurker »

Ray A wrote:I believe America is the greatest and most influential nation on earth, and no number of Benedict Arnolds will change my opinion.


No need for a Benedict Arnold, Ray. Just statistics.

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ats- ... 7515.story

The US ranks 42nd in the world in life expectancy, behind most of (godless) Europe, and many other countries. It has a higher infant mortality rate than almost all industrialized nations.

Believe whatever you like, in spite of the facts.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Ajax...

TD how are you proposing that this communal living would ever be accomplished.

Well, I'm guessing the church would do it the way it says it should be done in the D&C. (smile)

For the Church to bring back the law of consecration, would seem like little more than utter chaos to me.


I agree... (smile) I doubt many folks would go along with it, commandment or not. :-) It would take about five seconds for the decree to move into the "just an opinion" catagory!

Are we going to divide our goods equally with the third world? I can see how communal living might not be so bad in a small, agrarian, community, but at the entire Church inside a modern world? I don't think I would like the results. Maybe it does have to be brought back, but if it is, it looks like very bad times indeed.


Nibley makes a very compelling argument.

D&C 7... it states that every man who belongs to the church must be a part of it.. no one is exempt. Quoting Nibley..."It must begin now and from here on must continue. This is essential, we are told, if the church is to fulfill its purpose. "To advance the cause, which ye have expoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of the Father who is in Heaven."

According to Nibley, it sounds like the church is not in tune with the scriptures, and more importantly the will of God.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Ray A wrote:I believe America is the greatest and most influential nation on earth, and no number of Benedict Arnolds will change my opinion.


Oh come on Ray. America got where it did by unifying, by desimating the native American population and by wielding a big stick at the rest of the world. It's history is steeped in blood, (just as most countries are). Let's not be too nostalgic about the whole thing. I don't disagree that they are influential, but they got influential on the backs of others. America might have come into the 2nd World War, but it didn't do so without making millions off the Brits in lend/lease.

Having said that, with all it's faults, I'd take America over China, Russia or the Middle East.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

barrelomonkeys wrote:Ray why don't you move to the States?


Actually I nearly did. My family had however settled in Australia in the 1960s, and my brother provided me with an employment offer in 1974, when I migrated. I have an uncle and cousins who live in the States, the former migrated in the 1950s, and the latter are American-born. I have, by the way, visited America several times, including New York, Miami (several times), Los Angeles. One big factor in me deciding for Australia over the US was that you drive on the wrong side of the road, and that can be bloody dangerous.
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

Ray, you weren't a £1 pom were you!!???

We have just got our emigration papers through for Australia. MY BIL lives near Melbourne (teaches at the Uni there), so we are going out for a reccie in December. Perth and Adelaide look nice.

What think you???

Mary
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Miss Taken wrote:Ray, you weren't a £1 pom were you!!???

We have just got our emigration papers through for Australia. MY BIL lives near Melbourne (teaches at the Uni there), so we are going out for a reccie in December. Perth and Adelaide look nice.

What think you???

Mary


No I wasn't. I was born in Trinidad and lived there for 19 years. I visited England in 1961, 1967, 1969, and 1971-2. Lived in Crystal Palace for a short while. Perth is a nice city, so I hear, since I've never been there. I served my mission in Adelaide, and though also nice is not quite as exciting as Sydney or Melbourne. in my opinion if you don't visit Sydney then you're missing a great sightseeing spectacle, especially the Harbour Bridge and the Opera House, and Darling Harbour, which is where the Sydney Casino is, a very popular place for tourists.

If you're visiting in December, especially Perth, be prepared for the heat. On New Year's day 2006 the temperature reached 46 C, or 114 F where I live, and I think we're in for another hot summer. Fortunately these type of days are not regular. If you're emigrating then Perth sounds like a good choice. I hear it's a lot more relaxed. As much as I love visiting Sydney I wouldn't live there because it has become a sort of rat race to live in. I've lived in Wollongong, 50 miles south of Sydney, for 33 years, and I wouldn't live anywhere else in Oz. It lies between the mountains and the sea, and open country is 30 mins drive away, and Sydney about an hour and a bit.

Since this is off topic, you can PM any questions you have.
_barrelomonkeys
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Post by _barrelomonkeys »

Ray A wrote:
barrelomonkeys wrote:Ray why don't you move to the States?


Actually I nearly did. My family had however settled in Australia in the 1960s, and my brother provided me with an employment offer in 1974, when I migrated. I have an uncle and cousins who live in the States, the former migrated in the 1950s, and the latter are American-born. I have, by the way, visited America several times, including New York, Miami (several times), Los Angeles. One big factor in me deciding for Australia over the US was that you drive on the wrong side of the road, and that can be bloody dangerous.


Heh! When we moved back to the States from Japan my mom was pulled over for driving on the wrong side of the road. :) She told them "But this is the right side of the road!"
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