Why is my (mms) story, if true, of such concern to some?

[_moksha]

Are you sure it is your "story", and not your approach and reactions, that may be causing concern?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It doesn't matter. When they say they are having doubts, we should not be quick to show them the door.

[_wenglund]

Are you sure it is your "story", and not your approach and reactions, that may be causing concern?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Funny. I just returned from the other thread where I was contributing praise I thought was due to Wade. Regardless, I maintain what I said about you, Wade, even if I think you are seeing only what you want to see with me. mms

Again, I wasn't necessarily seeing anything with you. That is why I asked an exploritory question, rather than making and assertion.

For what it may be worth, the reason I asked was, I have recently found from my own experience in being perplexed when people have bristled at what I said, that there is great benefit in asking that same kind of introspective question. Before, I had just assumed the problem was solely with those who were bristtling--after all, I had the best of intents, and lots of people found me perfectly amicable to be around. However, when I finally took a breather from being defensive, I started to see that other people weren't envoking the same bristled responses as me, and so I tried to pick up on clues as to why that was. One of the things I discovered was that my comments tended to be somewhat judgemental, accusatory, confrontational, and emphatic (which some interpreted as dogmatic and closed minded). So, since I didn't want to cause anyone to bristle, I attempted to adjust my approach a bit, and as a result I have seen it occur less often--though, if I am correct in what I sense from your reaction to my exploritory question, I still may have room for improvement. ;-)

I also learned from fair and honest introspection that bristling may also have somewhat to do with those who bristle.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_mentalgymnast]

What about its potential authenticity is of such significant concern?

I don't know that there should be any concern whatsoever. I think that it should be of value to you to know that there are those that have been where your are, and possibly even deeper in the hole, and have been able to return to activity/faith/hope without dispensing with their integrity.

That should give you at least some degree of hope/confidence.

Regards,
MG

[_wenglund]

Are you sure it is your "story", and not your approach and reactions, that may be causing concern?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It doesn't matter. When they say they are having doubts, we should not be quick to show them the door.

While I agree about not showing them the door (is that what has been suggested?), I personally have found it beneficial to explore my question as a possible option.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_rcrocket]

So it is now my "style" and my "reactions", but remember, the focus has been on calling me a fraud and trying to persuade people that I am not what I claim to be. Why the need to persuade that I am a fraud, instead of simply pointing out that you do not like my style or reactions?

(As an aside, feel free to give me a little more detail about my "style" and "reactions" so that I can see from where you are coming.)

Why don't you just post one of your unanswered questions and I will just let your particular style be my particular problem?

[_beastie]

In addition to the ideas mentioned above, I believe some MADdites are especially antagonistic to those who present themselves as active members wavering in doubts. In a way, they prefer openly antagonistic critics, because then they can try to discredit the poster. So they're still trying to find a way to discredit you.

I lost faith years before getting online and discovering boards like MAD, but I am quite certain that had I happened upon them before losing faith, they would certainly have expedited the process.

I ask myself every time I go over there: is this really the best they can do?

[_mms]

Again, I wasn't necessarily seeing anything with you. That is why I asked an exploritory question, rather than making and assertion.

For what it may be worth, the reason I asked was, I have recently found from my own experience in being perplexed when people have bristled at what I said, that there is great benefit in asking that same kind of introspective question. Before, I had just assumed the problem was solely with those who were bristtling--after all, I had the best of intents, and lots of people found me perfectly amicable to be around. However, when I finally took a breather from being defensive, I started to see that other people weren't envoking the same bristled responses as me, and so I tried to pick up on clues as to why that was. One of the things I discovered was that my comments tended to be somewhat judgemental, accusatory, confrontational, and emphatic (which some interpreted as dogmatic and closed minded). So, since I didn't want to cause anyone to bristle, I attempted to adjust my approach a bit, and as a result I have seen it occur less often--though, if I am correct in what I sense from your reaction to my exploritory question, I still may have room for improvement. ;-)

I also learned from fair and honest introspection that bristling may also have somewhat to do with those who bristle.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I tried to explain this at MA&D. Let's take Selek (from MA&D) and me as examples. Selek is, like you Wade, strong in his testimony of the LDS Church and likely tries hard to live the teachings. Indeed, Selek, like you, knows quite well that whether it is because of ignorance, stupidity or something else, many active members find themselves surprised (and worse) upon reading what cyberspace has to offer re church history. Indeed, Selek, like you, knows that the discovery of such information sometimes leads to anger, frustration, and a feeling of being deceived.

So along I come to MA&D and make my first post in which I explain clearly that I am in a crisis of faith because of recent doubts due to new information. My post indicates that I am somewhat angry (bristling, possibly) and vulnerable due to my spiritual crisis (even though I think my first post was fairly innocuous, as well as my subsequent posts).

Does it make any sense at all for Selek, or you, to then bristle back at me, when you are the ones with the strong testimonies unshaken by the things shaking me? Or should we expect a bit more from those who claim to adhere to the teachings of the church? Should we really have the same expectation of the vulnerable and angry (warranted or not) "faithless" one that we do of the faithful apologist?

If you think about it, from Selek's and your point of view, I am spiritually sick, and you are (relatively) spiritually healthy, and I am exhibiting signs of spiritual illness (bristling in my presentation of my doubts), which you have both seen many times before, so you decide to exhibit the same signs of spiritual illness that I am exhibiting? Huh?

Thus, the "you started it" argument you have presented seems to me to be premised on the fact that we are all of the same spiritual health, which undermines the position that those with strong testimonies are in any better place than those struggling.

[_wenglund]

So it is now my "style" and my "reactions", but remember, the focus has been on calling me a fraud and trying to persuade people that I am not what I claim to be. Why the need to persuade that I am a fraud, instead of simply pointing out that you do not like my style or reactions?

(As an aside, feel free to give me a little more detail about my "style" and "reactions" so that I can see from where you are coming.)

Have you had much experience with online discussion boards?

I ask, not by way of accusation, but to learn and understand. Because, those who have spent much time on discussion boards will know that all sorts of shenanigans have been tried. The reality is, the very things that you have been accused of (falsely so), are frauds that have actually been perpetrated. So, whether right or wrong, it is somewhat to be expected that certain board participants would be highly suspicious and even overly quick to accuse--often mistakenly. I know that it has helped me to understand this when others have been overly quick in misjudging me (a not infrequent occurance).

I hope this helps. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

Don't get me wrong--I only had so much room in the subject line and did not mean to make that sound as self-absorbed as it does. What I meant was, why does my story generally as opposed to specifically, which I believe now is the story of many, considered so potentially damaging, if true?

It seems that some TBM's (certainly not all), both here and at MA&D, see my story to be a serious problem and go to great effort to try to persuade others that it is fraudulent. I simply do not understand why. Seriously, I do not get it. It is a simple story, really. And I imagine (and see now on the other thread) that there are, have been, and will be, many like me, who are active contributing members who come across historical aspects that cause significant concern, doubt, etc.

In short, why does it get such a strong reaction from the likes of Crock, Pahoran, Selek, Juliann, etc., etc. It has baffled me from day one. I mean, so what if I am some ignorant HP who should have known about polyandry and the papyrus issues, but didn't, and then learned and am concerned? What is the big deal to these folks? Why call me (and the others in my situation) frauds, trolls . . . why go to such effort to try to persuade people that the story is not authentic. What about its potential authenticity is of such significant concern?

The thing is, if I was a TBM, your story is a bit too close to home. You sound like someone I might know. And like. And respect. And trust. And if you can start to doubt the veracity of the church's claims, then where does that leave me? I've literally bet my life on the truthfulness of the church's claims based on the testimonies of people like you; if I'm wrong about you, it's entirely possible I'm wrong about a lot of things, and that's just too painful to contemplate. I have to believe that Joseph was a good and honorable man who never lied and certainly never cheated on his wife, or else I lose more than just my way; I lose my family and my spouse. I have to believe that Joseph saw and talked with angels, translated gold plates into a book, and performed otherwise unheard of acts of charity, or else I become one of the hated, one of the defiled, one of the shunned. I can't believe that Joseph lied and cheated and bilked people out of their farms and inheritances. For me to believe that Joseph was a con man means I have to doubt everything every single thing I've been taught since the day I got baptised. Trusted people have lied to me; people I love have been misled and in turn have misled me.

There's a lot riding on your story, mms. More than just your own life. You and men like you are the backbone of the church. You are the glue that holds the whole thing together. If you start to doubt, the foundation on which I've built my life begins to shift like sand on the beach. And it scares me. And when I'm scared, I get angry. And when I get angry, I say things I wouldn't say normally.

And it's not just you. It's every doubting member...

Welcome to my world.

[_mentalgymnast]

Don't get me wrong--I only had so much room in the subject line and did not mean to make that sound as self-absorbed as it does. What I meant was, why does my story generally as opposed to specifically, which I believe now is the story of many, considered so potentially damaging, if true?

It seems that some TBM's (certainly not all), both here and at MA&D, see my story to be a serious problem and go to great effort to try to persuade others that it is fraudulent. I simply do not understand why. Seriously, I do not get it. It is a simple story, really. And I imagine (and see now on the other thread) that there are, have been, and will be, many like me, who are active contributing members who come across historical aspects that cause significant concern, doubt, etc.

In short, why does it get such a strong reaction from the likes of Crock, Pahoran, Selek, Juliann, etc., etc. It has baffled me from day one. I mean, so what if I am some ignorant HP who should have known about polyandry and the papyrus issues, but didn't, and then learned and am concerned? What is the big deal to these folks? Why call me (and the others in my situation) frauds, trolls . . . why go to such effort to try to persuade people that the story is not authentic. What about its potential authenticity is of such significant concern?

The thing is, if I was a TBM, your story is a bit too close to home. You sound like someone I might know. And like. And respect. And trust. And if you can start to doubt the veracity of the church's claims, then where does that leave me? I've literally bet my life on the truthfulness of the church's claims based on the testimonies of people like you; if I'm wrong about you, it's entirely possible I'm wrong about a lot of things, and that's just too painful to contemplate. I have to believe that Joseph was a good and honorable man who never lied and certainly never cheated on his wife, or else I lose more than just my way; I lose my family and my spouse. I have to believe that Joseph saw and talked with angels, translated gold plates into a book, and performed otherwise unheard of acts of charity, or else I become one of the hated, one of the defiled, one of the shunned. I can't believe that Joseph lied and cheated and bilked people out of their farms and inheritances. For me to believe that Joseph was a con man means I have to doubt everything every single thing I've been taught since the day I got baptised. Trusted people have lied to me; people I love have been misled and in turn have misled me.

There's a lot riding on your story, mms. More than just your own life. You and men like you are the backbone of the church. You are the glue that holds the whole thing together. If you start to doubt, the foundation on which I've built my life begins to shift like sand on the beach. And it scares me. And when I'm scared, I get angry. And when I get angry, I say things I wouldn't say normally.

And it's not just you. It's every doubting member...

Welcome to my world.

It's at times like this that I think that I am starting to understand the applicability of this scripture, and others like it, in the Book of Mormon:

2 Ne. 4: 34
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

Regards,
MG