Is it Easier to "Rat" People Out in the LDS Chuch?

[_Mercury]

You all know about my "hate groupies" experience, wherein a particular poster on MADB circulated emails suggesting I was mentally unhinged and a possible sexual predator. She suggested contacting my stake president, my bishop, and my wife to put a stop to my evil behavior. It's quite easy to put the squeeze on someone in the church if you want to.

That is criminal behavior.

[_Runtu]

You all know about my "hate groupies" experience, wherein a particular poster on MADB circulated emails suggesting I was mentally unhinged and a possible sexual predator. She suggested contacting my stake president, my bishop, and my wife to put a stop to my evil behavior. It's quite easy to put the squeeze on someone in the church if you want to.

That is criminal behavior.

The scary thing is that she knew my name and what town I lived in. Gee, if I'd only been an anonymous coward ...

[_Mercury]

You all know about my "hate groupies" experience, wherein a particular poster on MADB circulated emails suggesting I was mentally unhinged and a possible sexual predator. She suggested contacting my stake president, my bishop, and my wife to put a stop to my evil behavior. It's quite easy to put the squeeze on someone in the church if you want to.

That is criminal behavior.

The scary thing is that she knew my name and what town I lived in. Gee, if I'd only been an anonymous coward ...

Above all else is the bizarro world view in Mormonism that one can simply hang up your bakers hat and tell everyone you don't want to play anymore. Leaving is hell because Mormons make it hell.

[_Mister Scratch]

There's a very real danger here of engaging in too much hyperbole. For believers within the church, for one, there's no fear at all. In that way, the rank and file have absolutely nothing to fear, as they would have had in Stalinist Russia.

I'm not sure I wholly agree with you here, Sethbag. I mean, let's face it: fear is an institutionalized facet of the LDS Church. Males are made to fear punishment do to masturbation, for example; women are made to fear that their Eternal Families will be taken from them. Think, too, about talks such as Vaughn J. Featherstone's "A Self-Inflicted Purging," which implies that members are under constant observation. You say that the rank-and-file have nothing to fear; isn't this more or less the same as saying that Party Loyalists have "nothing to fear"?

That said, I *do* agree with you that there is a danger of hyperbole. Obviously, you won't be hauled into a dank jail cell by Church security if you disbelieve. But in a sense, the sort of disruption, interference with family life, and shunning that wavering members have to undergo is undoubtedly a form of torture in and of itself.

The fear would really only apply to closet apostates criticizing the church on the internet, and then it's not universal. I, for one, don't really feel any fear at all, despite my rather vigorous criticism on this forum and on MAD. My bishop knows my belief situation and isn't inclined to do anything against me, probably for fear that it could lead to my wife and daughter not attending any longer. I am pretty sure he doesn't know about my online criticism, but I'm not really worried about him finding out and something drastic happening.

I, for one, am glad that you're not worried, but my main point remains: the institution and organizational structure exists, and it would be very, very easy for somebody to put the hurt on you and your family.

I'm at the point now where if he did find out about my internet criticism, and got all bent out of shape about it and escalated it to the SP and started court of love proceedings against me, I'd just submit a letter of resignation and be done with it. I don't really feel any fear because I know the church has no power over me, and that the beliefs aren't true, and that "losing my temple blessings" and priesthood amount to less than a hill of beans.

Well, do you fear interference with your family relationships?

I suppose if I lived in a real naziesque ward with a control freak fanatic as bishop, and I was the EQ President and my wife were the Relief Society President and we were really popular in the ward, and I was online criticising the church while my wife was TBM, I might feel some measure of fear that if my identify leaked it would have some social ramifications and cause my family situation a lot of grief. But comparing that to Stalinist Russia is way overdoing it.

If the structures are similar, than the comparison is apt, in my opinion.

[_why me]

You all know about my "hate groupies" experience, wherein a particular poster on MADB circulated emails suggesting I was mentally unhinged and a possible sexual predator. She suggested contacting my stake president, my bishop, and my wife to put a stop to my evil behavior. It's quite easy to put the squeeze on someone in the church if you want to.

That is criminal behavior.

The scary thing is that she knew my name and what town I lived in. Gee, if I'd only been an anonymous coward ...

Above all else is the bizarro world view in Mormonism that one can simply hang up your bakers hat and tell everyone you don't want to play anymore. Leaving is hell because Mormons make it hell.

I haven't found this to be the case at all. A couple of years ago, one ward had two families resign their membership and in my ward, a family resigned. No problem. I suppose it depends on the people and their personalities in the ward. But these days, I find that people are too busy doing life to care about who resigned and why. It is a personal thing and very few people take an interest.

Of course, contact was still tried but after a while that stops too. I think that this whole 'rat out' thing is too over done.

I attend catholic mass and I let it be known to the bishopic. No one cared, even though I can still show up for sunday school or priesthood. No one cares. Everyone is doing life to take notice or to mind.

[_cksalmon]

What doesn't happen in EV churches when someone goes inactive is shunning.

Sure, there will probably be some initial calls, visits, cards, letters. But once the person makes it clear that he/she is just not interested, it stops. And conversations still happen at the grocery store.

To my thinking, the mindset is this: "Okay, you don't want to be at church; shunning you would lead to the probability that you'll never want to come back--because of me! And I'd love to see you come back."

I'm sure it happens. But, typically, among EV's, it doesn't seem that inactivity leads to negative effects in the larger community.

This may be due to the radical individualism prevalent in evangelicalism. Sort of like, well, you're not down with us; that's cool. Hope you find something that suits your needs.

CKS

PS. And at my church, there has just been instituted a campaign to track down inactive members, see if they're interested in getting involved again, and, if not, to remove their names from the rolls from our end. That's utterly typical in SBC churches.

[_mentalgymnast]

1 It is the duty of the Lord’s clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrate properties, and receive inheritances legally from the bishop;
2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.

in my opinion, before anyone is baptized, they should be well informed of this scripture...

They should be clearly taught that even if they someday no longer believe in the LDS church, they are still considered a member and there will be a record kept of their life, faith, and works! Further, even if they resign their membership which must be done formally with a letter, they are still on the roles of the LDS church.

In terms of fear... once one is open and free of the church the fear is gone, but for many still in the closet, there is great fear, not of God but of the resulting consequences to one's work, family, and marriage.

In thinking of the many closet non-believers who have contacted me, one of the first things out of their mouth, is, "I can't let anyone know," or, "Please promise you will never tell anyone."

I think the church is full of closet non-believers who are still in the clutches of fear.

~dancer~

Mr. Scratch's orginal post was questioning why all the record keeping and monitoring of members. The scripture I quoted may one of the scriptures considered by leaders as being reason/mandate to do so.

Just answering his question/observation. I wouldn't doubt that it's been a while since he has been anywhere near section 85 in the D&C.

Regards,
MG

[_Mister Scratch]

1 It is the duty of the Lord’s clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrate properties, and receive inheritances legally from the bishop;
2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.

in my opinion, before anyone is baptized, they should be well informed of this scripture...

They should be clearly taught that even if they someday no longer believe in the LDS church, they are still considered a member and there will be a record kept of their life, faith, and works! Further, even if they resign their membership which must be done formally with a letter, they are still on the roles of the LDS church.

In terms of fear... once one is open and free of the church the fear is gone, but for many still in the closet, there is great fear, not of God but of the resulting consequences to one's work, family, and marriage.

In thinking of the many closet non-believers who have contacted me, one of the first things out of their mouth, is, "I can't let anyone know," or, "Please promise you will never tell anyone."

I think the church is full of closet non-believers who are still in the clutches of fear.

~dancer~

Mr. Scratch's orginal post was questioning why all the record keeping and monitoring of members. The scripture I quoted may one of the scriptures considered by leaders as being reason/mandate to do so.

But is this a *good* reason/mandate? Does the fact that this scripture exists somehow mitigate the underlying, disturbing nature of the practices? I don't think so. This record keeping and monitoring of members---this institutionalized ease of "ratting people out"---strikes me as being a negative facet of the Church that ought to go the way of the priesthood ban. Simply because a scripture exists justifying a crummy practice does not mean that that practice ought to be continues. At least, that is not how things have traditionally worked in Mormonism.

Just answering his question/observation. I wouldn't doubt that it's been a while since he has been anywhere near section 85 in the D&C.

Regards,
MG

Right. I sure do love presumptuousness, MG. I wouldn't doubt that you don't know diddlysquat.

[_Jersey Girl]

cks

Sort of like, well, you're not down with us; that's cool. Hope you find something that suits your needs.

Exactly. I think I could walk into my old church next Wednesday night to visit, announce that I was an atheist (I'm not, just using that to illustrate) and they'd say "Great to see you! Are you staying for dinner?" Clearing the rolls/directories is done on a fairly regular basis. It's not cost effective to send out mailings to people who have left town or become disinterested.

I will have a few more comments to make on this later, I think.

[_Mister Scratch]

Of course, contact was still tried but after a while that stops too. I think that this whole 'rat out' thing is too over done.

I attend catholic mass and I let it be known to the bishopic. No one cared, even though I can still show up for sunday school or priesthood. No one cares. Everyone is doing life to take notice or to mind.

Nevertheless, the ease with which this "ratting" can take place is quite alarming, wouldn't you say? Sure: you have been lucky insofar as "everyone [was] doing life to take notice or to mind." But what is that ceases to be so? What if some old LDS with nothing better to do decides to rat you out to one of the GAs? My point (and the point of my OP) is this: it would be remarkably, disturbingly easy to do. There is an entire bureaucratic mechanism set up precisely in order to help facilitate this "tattle-tale" culture.