What's a concubine?

[_beastie]

So to be clear, a concubine is a member of the harem to which the master is not married.

That about sums it up.

Any believers/supporters of polygamy want to chime in? How do you reconcile this?

[_asbestosman]

So to be clear, a concubine is a member of the harem to which the master is not married.

That about sums it up.

Any believers/supporters of polygamy want to chime in? How do you reconcile this?

Well, relationships that are not marriage reminds me of the old Law of Adoption. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[_truth dancer]

Just a little more information.... :-)

Concubines were slaves who were used by their masters for sex and as servants... they were not wives.

In ancient times, men owned women who were in one of three catagories: wives, concubines, or slaves.

Concubines were owned and used for sex and servitude by their masters, and as servants to the master's wives.

From The Creation of Patriarchy, p. 96,

"The distinction between a free married woman and a slave was expressed within degrees of unfreedom. The class difference between a wife living under the patriarchal dominance/protection of her husband and a slave living under the dominance/protection of the master was manily that the wife could own a slave, male or female, and other property....At the bottom stood the slave woman, whose sexuality was disposed of by powerful men as though it were a marketable commodity; in the middle the slave-concubine, whose sexual performance might result in her upward mobility, the bestowal of some privileges and winining of inheritance rights for her children; at the top the wife, whose sexual services to one man entitled her to property and legal rights."

To call a concubine a wife is incorrect.... she was a slave, sexually and otherwise.

~dancer~

[_beastie]

Here's the reference I was trying to remember:

Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy, p 16, footnote 17

Apostle Willard Richards in December 1845 entered into such a plural marriage with Alice Longstroth (my insert, he’s referring to “marrying” someone as a common-law wife by having sexual relations without a ceremony performed). His 23 December diary entry reads: “At 10 P.M. took Alice L[ongstroth] by the [hand] of our own free will and avow mutuall acknowledge each other husband & wife, in a covenant not to be broken in time or Eternity for time & for all Eternity & and called upon God. & all Holy angels - & Sarah Long[stro]th to witness the same.”

Apostle Abraham H. Cannon noted in his 5 April 1894 diary that both George Q. Cannon and Wilford Woodruff approved of such arrangements. “I believe in concubinage,” George Q. is recorded as saying, “or some plan whereby men and women can live together under sacred ordinances and vows until they can be married.” Woodruff responded to Cannon’s suggestion, “If men enter into some practice of this character to raise a righteous posterity, they will be justified in it.”

[_truth dancer]

Thurdsay night I watched a movie, The Couple.

It was based on a true story about a Jewish couple during Nazi Germany and their escape to freedom.

One point that particularly caught my attention, was the belief that the elite Nazis could use already married women to bear their children to carry on the superior seed. In addition, their husbands were supposed to allow it to support the movement.

This whole idea of a superior/chosen/elite/blessed lineage/bloodline is archaic and primitive ... the fact that this mindset still exists today is truly remarkable.

When will this nonsense disappear?

~dancer~

[_beastie]

When will this nonsense disappear?

It's discouraging, isn't it? And disgusting. Whenever the idea pops up, no matter what dogma it is clothed in, it is always trouble.

I do believe it will one day disappear. But it will take time. When you consider how recently women were just allowed to vote in civilized societies, you realize how far we have to go.

[_asbestosman]

This whole idea of a superior/chosen/elite/blessed lineage/bloodline is archaic and primitive ... the fact that this mindset still exists today is truly remarkable.

I'm not aware of it still existing today--at least not in a very widespread manner. If you're referring to the hole tribes of Israel thing, I think it's quite different. We believe all men are in oneor the other tribe by adoption or blood and I see nothing to indicate that one tribe is superior to another. Rather I see it more like natural differences. Some people are good at art, some at math, some at music, some at dance, etc. It's not reallly a question of superiority. All are talented and all are blessed.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Asbestosman,

I'm not aware of it still existing today--at least not in a very widespread manner.

Not widespread, but it certainly still comes up from members who believe in the whole Abrahamic line of blessings.

an If you're referring to the hole tribes of Israel thing, I think it's quite different.

I think it is the very same thing... :-) people thought, (and still think) God has a chosen group of people, the elite, the special ones.

We believe all men

How about women?

are in oneor the other tribe by adoption or blood and I see nothing to indicate that one tribe is superior to another.

Well I'm sure you see nothing, like most of us here, but certainly the LDS church has suggested there are those of one race/lineage/bloodline more chosen/special/valiant than others no? (smile) There are still those today who believe Joseph Smith was a direct bloodline of Jesus Christ, and clearly the idea of a special bloodline was the belief of the day in the early church.

Rather I see it more like natural differences.

I think you are the exception when it comes to believers. :-)

Some people are good at art, some at math, some at music, some at dance, etc. It's not reallly a question of superiority. All are talented and all are blessed.

Then why all the nonsense about tribes? Race? Color of skin? Lineage? Bloodlines?

I think it is pretty clear Abraham & Co. thought they were the elect of God. Similarly to Joseph Smith and other leaders of the church. And today the eliticism in my opinion, still exists.

You seem to have moved beyond the silliness! :-)

~dancer~

[_asbestosman]

I think it is the very same thing... :-) people thought, (and still think) God has a chosen group of people, the elite, the special ones.

Sure, the chosen ones are homo-sapiens. Another chosen group are church members. Another is the Jews. Another is the rest of the Gentiles. It's pretty all-encompasing. The one group that isn't chosen are the willful wicked, but that's their own choice, not God's.

How about women?

Of course. When I think Biblically I tend to employ Biblical phrases even though it's not PC and may also be unclear. I would hope, however, that my usage of the word men in that case was understaood to be genderless (and by genderless I don't mean eunichs (sounds like weird computer operating system) ).

Then why all the nonsense about tribes? Race? Color of skin? Lineage? Bloodlines?

I won't defend the stuff about race or color of skin. I was talking specifically about today, and the whole priesthood issue changed just a few months after I was born. As to lineage, bloodlines, or tribes, I obviously don't know, but I can see God having various people have different missions in life. With that in mind, I don't why He couldn't also choose to place them in a particular lineage perhaps to that end. What I do not believe is that one lineage is necessarily superior or has the right to rule over the others or any of that nonsense. Rather I see normal differences such as a need to preach the gospel in various places, to help strengthen existing members, and things like that. I can imagine some are naturally better suited for it than others. Or perhaps some would benefit better from the experience.

[_moksha]

This talk reminds me of the times I have seen bits and pieces posted about Mormon Royalty. When I have inquired about it, I nevered received any specific information. I am uncertain if people really believe this but are keeping mum or if this is just Mormon urban legend.