Godly sorrow or shame?

[_MishMagnet]

I was one of those people that confessed quickly and completely and felt I deserved anything that brought upon me after that. There was one instance I went in a year after my first confession because I was still feeling bad about it and felt this was perhaps because some detail had been left out and I hadn't been forgiven.

My sister ended up having sex with my brother in law before they were married. Both BYU-I students, they had gone to the Bishop right away. They were advised to get married civily and quickly, which is what they did. The entire ceremony reaked of shame. My sister was not allowed to invite any friends, any tears were tears of sorrow. I had joked with her that she should have had a scarlet A sewn to her wedding dress. The Bishop reminded us no less than 5 times that this marriage was 'for time only'.

My husband, who has never been a member, could not believe they had confessed and brought this upon themselves. In truth the worse sin would have been to lie through their interviews, be married in the temple and then confess later. They could have had the privacy to repent that they were not allowed in this public shaming. Public shame or worser sin. That's a tough one.

I feel so badly for missionaries that get sent home or couples who end up in the civil ceremony. The public shame factor is why. No matter what you do in your life you will be remembered for that missionary that got sent home early. You are that couple that couldn't get married in the temple. After you are married, cheat on your wife and get disfellowshiped. You still have your privacy as long as you don't tell anyone. Perhaps some people pick up on it that you are not participating but there is no wide-spread public shaming. And really I find adultery to be so much more hurtful than consentual sex between a committed couple.

When I was in high school I had to come to my parents and tell them I had an eating disorder and that I needed help. I was placed in the hospital for 6 weeks, pulled out of school, had days of intense therapy. There was so much support. My teachers, people from church, my parents, friends. I received letters of encouragement, visits, positive phone calls. I had been binging and purging 6x/day. My potassium was so low I was in danger of a heart attack. I was so depressed I was suicidal. I regret doing this to myself 10x more than any sexual 'sin' I might have participated in. Nobody had any problem cheering me to recovery in this case, though. With sexual sins you get precious little cheering - if any. And yet you have gone to confess. You have admitted to being wrong. You have made a committment to do better. I find it very disheartening.

[_guy sajer]

Sin is a religious concept, and a very unfortunate one. One (society) can construct a wholly secular and rational system of morals without God even entering the picture. Many "sins" are victimless acts, or better said, the only victim is the poor schlub who is made to feel guilty for doing something that hurts no one else.

Why, moreover, should we ask forgiveness of a being (imaginary one at that) who is not affected in the least by our actions? Even if we do buy into the white-beared, retributative man in the sky, and we assume we can talk to him (though we've never seen him or heard from him), why can't we apologize directly to him? Confessing our acts to an unaffected fourth party makes no sense to me, except from a "cathartic" point of view (getting things off one's chest as an act of catharsis, etc.)

The only people who have any right to know about what we've done, and to whom we should ask forgiveness, are people that we've hurt, betrayed, etc as a result of our acts. Neither God nor an ecclesiastical authority figure fall into this category.

The cost of unecessary guilt, self-loathing, social marginalization, etc. far outweigh, IMHO, whatever benefits are derived from the religious concept of sin and repentance.

[_Trinity]

My nephew was sent home last year from his mission. He can't get a date in his hometown. The good little Mormon girls won't touch him because he is not an RWH RM. I think it is kind of ironic because now he is likely to date and marry out of the church completely because of this type of shunning.

When my daughter was in therapy, I was struck by the similarities between the steps of repentance and the AA 12 recovery steps. Except for the end processes wherein in the church you must forsake your sin completely before receiving forgiveness (as opposed to the AA there is a reality for future "sin" and a willingness to work on it even though they may have faltered). I always wondered why in AA the notion of a higher being was part of the healing process even though it may be an atheistic going through the steps. It appears to me that if one believes in a higher power, it is tossing the mortal weakness onto that higher power that is cathartic in motivating change.

The Steps of Repentance:
Feel Godly Sorrow
Confess to God (or ecclesiastical leader if necessary)
Ask for Forgiveness
Rectify Problems Caused by the Sin(s)
Forsake Sin
Receive Forgiveness

AA Steps

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[_barrelomonkeys]

The only people who have any right to know about what we've done, and to whom we should ask forgiveness, are people that we've hurt, betrayed, etc as a result of our acts.

Bravo! Having the ability to recognize how our actions impact others, having the courage to acknowledge this to them, and seeking to change this behavior is, in my opinion, what we should all be striving towards. I think the easy way out is to say our 'sins' are wiped clean by a super deity in the sky.

Some of this public shame, over things that actually don't impact others at all, seems like a control mechanism created by arbitrary rules of religion.

[_asbestosman]

Maybe repentance is supposed to be difficult to help counter-act the "plan" some have of sinning and then repenting later. You know the old saying about how it's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission? I think the steps of repentance are such to help make it easier to ask for permission than to go through the repentance process or rather it's easier not to sin in the first place.

As to the necessity of confessing to the bishop, I think it's an outward demonstration of faith and conviction. When Naman had leprosy, he was asked to wash himself in the river Jordan. Naman didn't want to do that, but when he finally did, it demonstrated that he finally did have enough faith in the words of the prophet. Being able to confess sins requires a certain amount of faith and humility. Being able to return to God also requires a certain amount of faith and humility. That repentance would use confession as a means to encourage one to develop said faith and humility makes sense to me. God obviously doesn't need to hear the confession nor does the bishop. Rather it is the one repenting (read everyone) who needs to have enough faith to be able to confess, or rather who needs enough faith to submit in obediance to any and all of God's commandments.

[Guest]

It has been my opinion for a while now that there are actions which cause harm to others and actions that cause harm to ourselves. In the church it seems we are held more accountable for those actions which cause harm to ourselves. Repenting for an action which has already caused yourself harm seems redundant.

As a non-believer I feel 'sin' is our actions that cause harm to others. These need to be 'repented' for even when we don't believe in a higher power. 'Forgiveness' is also important even if we don't believe in a higher power. This is why, years after the fact, I am smarting over the racial joke I told in the 8th grade and not over the pre-marital sex I had. The pre-marital sex hurt no-one while the racial joke did. I would hope God would care more about the joke than the sex but this is not what I was taught.

[_BishopRic]

This reminds me of a song from South Pacific (sorry, I'm old!):

You have to be taught to hate and fear
You have to be taught from year to year
It has to be drummed in your dear little ear
You have to be carefully taught!
-Rogers and Hammerstein

I consider guilt to be fear-based. And I consider it taught...mostly in a religious setting. When "Godly sorrow/shame" is mentioned, today I view it as a control tactic. It really is amazing how many behaviors I felt guilty about while in the church, that I do today, and feel quite good -- even spiritual! To have a glass of wine with dinner on a romantic night with my fiance is the epitome of spiritual connection...

Awww, when is the weekend gonna be here?!