Homosexuality, British study finds...

[_Gazelam]

Spong is a sad, pathetic little man, Why doesent he just leave the church all together and get it over with? He believes in nothing, stands for no principles whatsoever. He spends his time actually tearing down peoples Faith!!!! Under the guise of being a minister!

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

prejudice and/or discrimination against one or all members of a particular group based on negative perceptions of their beliefs and practices or on negative group stereotypes (Anti-Defamation League).
www.in.gov/cji/youth/compliance/glossary.doc

Is bigotry a sin?

I am intolerant of hijackers who fly planes in buildings, of pedophiles, of scam artists, of bullies, of aduilterers, of thieves, of. . . well,I could go on. Do you notice what all of the above have in common? Breaking the laws of God.

Do I have a prejudice against any of the above? Well, I wouldn't let a Muslim etremist at the controls of a 747. And I wouldn't let a pedophile baby sit my kids. I wouldn't send an adulterer to the bank with the day's receipts. (In case you have a question about that, an adulterer thinks he/she only has to be honest and faithful if it is convenient. Cheat on your husband or wife and you would just as easily cheat on a boss.)

Am I intolerant of Southern Baptists? Or atheists? Or Jews? Homosexuals? Absolutely not. For 10 years I worked with two individuals who were gay. One was openly so. One was not. I did not condone their lifestyle. We never talked about their living arrangments. We ate lunch together at work sometimes, we were cordial. I am retired now and I don't see them socially. We send Christmas cards. Or does the fact that we don't exchange gifts means I am bigoted.

Charity
You actually ate lunch with them? WOW I am impressed you would allow yourself to mingle with gays. I hope you don't think you are tolerant because you were cordial, you were simply being professional for the sake of your job. How you must of hated them for their lifestyle, they probably felt the same way about you. Tolerated you for being straight.

Too bad you never really got know them past being cordial.

[_Bryan Inks]

He did say that about homosexual behavior.

Do you have a link to his press conference?

Maybe the news article in which he was interviewed?

Or are you simply basing this horrific belief on what someone else told you?

[_BishopRic]

The time has come for people to realize that pious homophobia is not a substitute for truth.

What truth? Homosexual behavior is a sin. That won't change.

Let's see...let's see how far behind the times Charity is. Charity, is Hansen's disease (leprosy) still a condition that one gets because of sin?

Good scientists understand homosexuality as biological, not a choice, so how could it be "a sin?" I suppose the only way you could spin it is to say they were not valiant in the pre-existence?

Seems the only thing antiquated in Mormonism is the members' thinking!

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Charity, i'll insert in bold:

Believe as you choose. I don't believe/think it is in any way a "sin". Not any more than being a "south-paw" was so considered a few generations ago.

by the way, I don't think you responded to my question re "...accountable for thoughts..." Warm regards, Roger

God never said being left handed was a sin. RM: I know that. But a lot of folks in the past must have thought he did. He did say that about homosexual behavior. RM: So you say. Where is that found in his word?

I don't know where "accountable for thoughts. . . " came from.

RM: Your statement on the BIC Thread. Your post 913, Dec 12, 9:46AM: See below UL'd...

Are you asking if we are accountable for thoughts as well as behaviors?

We aren't accountable as sinning for random thoughts. I think it was President McKay who said "you can't stop the seagulls from flying overhead, but you don't have to let them sit on your shoulder." Flying overhead a sin? No. Sitting on the shoulder a sin? Yes. RM: Seems a rather juvenile statement. Irrelevant to this discussion. Maybe he was speaking in Primary??

Nice put down. But you are right about accountabliity. We will all be held accountable for what we think and do.

Did you read the British Psychiatric study on Spongs site? I hope so. I found it interesting that the study agreed that there is immorallity within the homosexual community, as there is in the heterosexual community. BUT, sexual orientation is a born-with state, whatever it might be. Those who are hetero did not so chose. Nor did the homosexuals. In time intelligence will prevail. Then "...all "Gods" children will live with Charity as their guiding principle..." Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Spong is a sad, pathetic little man, Why doesent he just leave the church all together and get it over with? He believes in nothing, stands for no principles whatsoever. He spends his time actually tearing down peoples Faith!!!! Under the guise of being a minister!

You sure do generalize Bro. On the contrary, he spends his time traveling the world speaking to thousands in varying settings to inform them of the dark-age mentality that is slowly seeping into the sands of time. Actually, he is restoring the faith of many in a Christianity without prejudice, and discrimination. No surprise that he is subject to distain, hate, and life threats. Just what a person who stands against erroneous traditions is subject to. Jesus is one such. Roger

[_Jersey Girl]

New report from Spong's desk:

From time to time a report comes across my desk that is so important that I want to share it with my readers. That is the case with this report from the Royal College of Psychiatrists in the United Kingdom. It is not that their thought is new, it is that they have undertaken to report it systematically and with the full scholarship and authority of their offices. They have also included a bibliography, which is attached.

When a prejudice is being debated there is a necessity for both sides of the debate to possess facts not just opinions. That is what is so often missing when religious people debate homosexuality. This report was issued because of the raging argument and dislocation going on in my church and in many others about homosexuality. The time has come for people to realize that pious homophobia is not a substitute for truth. The time has also come for Church leaders at every level to be confronted by competent scholarship, and for weak and fearful bishops, who believe that unity in ignorance is a legitimate goal for the Christian Church, to be told that it is not.

I commend this report to your study and hope that you will help to distribute it widely. For any part of the Christian Church to break apart over the use of outdated and thoroughly discredited ideas about homosexuality is a tragedy. For any part of the Christian Church to be as woefully uninformed on this subject as so many ecclesiastical leaders seem to be is a sign of incompetent leadership.

I think what I UL'd says it all. Thoughts? Comments? Roger

Full report can be found on Spong's site <support@johnshelbyspong.com>

With all due respect, Roger. The above underlined portion of the quote you supplied says virtually nothing at all. What is it that folks are "uniformed" about? What "discredited" ideas regarding homosexuality is this referring to?

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Believe as you choose. I don't believe/think it is in any way a "sin". Not any more than being a "south-paw" was so considered a few generations ago.

by the way, I don't think you responded to my question re "...accountable for thoughts..." Warm regards, Roger

God never said being left handed was a sin. He did say that about homosexual behavior.

I don't know where "accountable for thoughts. . . " came from.

Are you asking if we are accountable for thoughts as well as behaviors?

We aren't accountable as sinning for random thoughts. I think it was President McKay who said "you can't stop the seagulls from flying overhead, but you don't have to let them sit on your shoulder." Flying overhead a sin? No. Sitting on the shoulder a sin? Yes.

Where did God say that, charity?

[_Jersey Girl]

BishopRic

Good scientists understand homosexuality as biological, not a choice, so how could it be "a sin?"

On what body of research do you base the above assertion, Bish?

Jersey Girl

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Jersey Girl, did you read the full report? Pasted below is from your post:

... For any part of the Christian Church to break apart over the use of outdated and thoroughly discredited ideas about homosexuality is a tragedy. For any part of the Christian Church to be as woefully uninformed on this subject as so many ecclesiastical leaders seem to be is a sign of incompetent leadership.

(The above 2 lines were originally underlined)


I think what I UL'd says it all. Thoughts? Comments? Roger

Full report can be found on Spong's site <support@johnshelbyspong.com>


With all due respect, Roger. The above underlined portion of the quote you supplied says virtually nothing at all. What is it that folks are "uniformed" about? What "discredited" ideas regarding homosexuality is this referring to?

Jersey Girl

Thanks for the "due respect" :-) You say Spong, "...says virtually nothing..."?? As i (RM) read it, he says/suggests that over time "folks have been uninformed re homosexuality".

Now that credible studies have been accepted by an increasing number of folks--in the Christianized Western world--Spong is dismayed by the reluctance of others (churches in particular) to accept new findings.

He lays responsibility for the retardance of new information, generally speaking, at the feet of leaders who display incompetance by their predisposition to 'follow' old policies founded in ignorance, rather than to 'lead'. Unfolding knowledge of Homosexuality as a viable sexual orientation is denied at a cost to the whole of humanity. IMSCO...

That you might disagree is understandable, IF you understood what he suggests. If your incommprehension of his statement stood in the way of that, i hope my attempt to clarify has helped?? Warm regards, Roger