The worst thing about Mormonism

[_truth dancer]

Hi Runtu...

Your post speaks to the heart of my disbelief.

I found myself trying to convince my conscience that what was good was bad and what was bad was actually good.

It seriously was making me crazy! :-)

How often did I hear leaders tell me that if I just had more faith I would know that the ban was of God, or that my desire to be a therapist was of Satan, or that if I would just pray harder I would feel good about polygamy?

My disbelief had nothing to do with historical problems of the LDS church or Joseph Smith unethical behavior (which I didn't know much about at the time), but had more to do with knowing I had to follow what I consider the way of holiness. Right or wrong, I had to listen to my conscience, my heart, my sense of right and wrong. I had to live true to my personal inspiration which was/is at odds with the teachings of the LDS church in many respects.

~dancer~

[_cksalmon]

Cover your eyes those averse to scripture...

From 2 Peter 2:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [1] and committed them to chains [2] of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; [3] 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, [4] and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, [5] while they feast with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!

...

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves [6] of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

CKS

[_Chap]

Will in his posts has been explaining to us that we're just prudes and not liberal enough to understand that it's OK to take other women as your spouses and lie to your wife about it. It's OK to tell your friends that their salvation depends on their giving you their teenaged daughters to wife. This stuff reminds me that the worst thing about Mormonism is that it makes you rationalize this kind of crap. Most people would find it very difficult to rationalize such things, but the true believer must rationalize them, and in the process he or she must vilify those who cannot or will not rationalize them. In short, Mormonism turns people against their own consciences. LDS scriptures describe people with "seared" consciences who are "past feeling." Who knew that it was the church who made them that way?

This post goes to the heart of why I find it fascinating to read posts from intelligent and articulate LDS believers who still accept the doctrines and scriptures of their church more or less in the literal and grammatical sense. The other thread referred to by Runtu, which has had many posts by Will Schryver, gives us excellent examples of what this involves. The individual concerned is quite aware that, to those who do not share LDS belief that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of their deity, certain conclusions seem obvious:

Schryver:

I can discern nothing in the actions of Joseph Smith that I am inclined to condemn.

If you did not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet (in whatever sense you attach to that word), whose actions in the area we are discussing were the consequence of his acting on revelation vouchsafed to him by the deity you believe in, would you still make the statement quoted above?

Probably not.

The two things are understandably intertwined.

And, as I have frequently made clear in reference to this and other issues (such as the Book of Abraham controversy), I am empathetic towards those whose judgment has led them to conclude otherwise. And once one has begun to seriously doubt that Joseph Smith was a bona fide prophet; a man who communicated in a very unique and real way with God, well ... I can understand perfectly how many other factors then seem to reinforce and confirm that conclusion.

As for myself, there are several decisive elements that factor into my conclusion.

Never the less, the commitment to maintaining the belief system is so deep that the believer is prepared to go through extreme mental, moral and verbal contortions that simply seem bizarre to (I would suggest) the very great majority of educated readers with normal access to sources of information about the CoJCoLDS and related matters. And the more often the contortions are performed in public, the deeper is the investment in maintaining belief in what Schyver is well aware is:

a religious belief system that is widely disparaged as the acme of stupidity and its adherents the most egregious examples of gullibility in our world today.

It is such an interesting (because quite extreme) example of what religious commitment and all its intellectual and social trammels, can do to an intelligent person living in a relatively free and open environment for information access and debate. I find the contemplation of this kind of thing a great help in warding off any nostalgia for the comfort offered by the religious tradition to which I once belonged myself. Thanks, TBMs. Keep up the good work.

[_dartagnan]

This is precisely the reason why atheists say that religion is dangerous.

But they do so with no or little understanding of why this kind of thing occurs.

Rationaizations and cognitive biases exist in human minds with or without religion. I'm beginning to think that it is a neccesary part of who we are. Everyone does it in the context of whatever it is they are passionate about. Atheists I have found to be little different, though like religionists, you have the extreme and the more rational. Just look at JAK on the other thread. He totally goes into confirmation bias mode, ignoring points that totally undermine his premise.
Humans do this. If religion isn't the medium in which it is used, then maybe politics will be. Or maybe a passionate stalker will rationalize why it was OK to kill his victim.

When you get down to it all, the real problem is human nature.

Unless you're something other than human, it is hypocrisy to criticize others for doing it.

[_Chap]

This is precisely the reason why atheists say that religion is dangerous.

But they do so with no or little understanding of why this kind of thing occurs.

Rationaizations and cognitive biases exist in human minds with or without religion. I'm beginning to think that it is a neccesary part of who we are. Everyone does it in the context of whatever it is they are passionate about. Atheists I have found to be little different, though like religionists, you have the extreme and the more rational. Just look at JAK on the other thread. He totally goes into confirmation bias mode, ignoring points that totally undermine his premise.
Humans do this. If religion isn't the medium in which it is used, then maybe politics will be. Or maybe a passionate stalker will rationalize why it was OK to kill his victim.

When you get down to it all, the real problem is human nature.

Unless you're something other than human, it is hypocrisy to criticize others for doing it.

It is precisely because I am well aware of my own tendency to rationalise away evidence that might threaten my current view of the world that I try as hard as I can to be critical of myself whenever I catch myself at it. On the whole I have found it liberating and empowering (though sometimes painful) to maintain this critical vigilance, though I am sure I do not always do a perfect job of it.

Now there is nothing wrong in itself about not being willing to abandon a long-term view simply because one piece of counter-evidence turns up. Successful scientific communities certainly do not act that way, nor do effective individuals. To that extent I agree with dartagnan that some ability to keep at bay frequent disruptions to one's world-view is natural to human beings, and even beneficial.

But there has to come a point where one accepts that, however much one COULD rationalise oneself out of an impasse, it is better to change one's mind and admit that one was just plain wrong about the way things were. Otherwise the price in terms of suppressed internal conflicts and disconnection from reality is just too high.

I don't see anything hypocritical about pointing that out. Indeed in the case of some posters on this board, it seems very appropriate to do so.

[_Jason Bourne]

How often did I hear leaders tell me that if I just had more faith I would know that the ban was of God, or that my desire to be a therapist was of Satan,...

Who said your desire to be a therapist was of Satan?

[_beastie]

But they do so with no or little understanding of why this kind of thing occurs.

Rationaizations and cognitive biases exist in human minds with or without religion. I'm beginning to think that it is a neccesary part of who we are. Everyone does it in the context of whatever it is they are passionate about. Atheists I have found to be little different, though like religionists, you have the extreme and the more rational. Just look at JAK on the other thread. He totally goes into confirmation bias mode, ignoring points that totally undermine his premise.
Humans do this. If religion isn't the medium in which it is used, then maybe politics will be. Or maybe a passionate stalker will rationalize why it was OK to kill his victim.

When you get down to it all, the real problem is human nature.

Unless you're something other than human, it is hypocrisy to criticize others for doing it.

Of course it's human nature. The only antidote is a deliberately constructed system of thought and procedures which are designed to eliminate the effect of the biases of human thought. This antidote revolutionized the world for the very reason that it gave human beings a tool by which we could circumvent the very flaws of our nature.

Antidote = the scientific method and the rules of logic

[_harmony]

I disagree. The worst thing about Mormonism is the double standard. And its getting worse and worse every day.

[_truth dancer]

How often did I hear leaders tell me that if I just had more faith I would know that the ban was of God, or that my desire to be a therapist was of Satan,...

Who said your desire to be a therapist was of Satan?

I wanted to be a psychologist since I was ten. I had several local leaders, bishops, YW leaders tell me that to work outside the home was NOT God's will. That women were tempted by Satan to work outside the home. (Remember Benson's talk?) A woman's place was having children, staying home, and supporting one's husband. I was even counseled to pray to release the desire. (It never worked in spite of serious efforts).

I understand this teaching is not as common today nevertheless, I heard it a LOT growing up.

Today I believe my desire is a holy one.

:-)

~dancer~

[_Scottie]

You're right that it is human nature.

I dare you to try and convince an American that America is not the greatest country on Earth. They don't want to hear facts about how we are a country running out of control with consumption of non-renewable resources. That we are one of the highest contributors to global warming. That our wars are not just.

They are blinded and have no desire to see. Same with religion.