"Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

[_harmony]

From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived.

And this is the leaders' fault why?

Never said it was. BUT, I think an argument can be made that there could be vast improvements in the emphasis of true unconditional love. It has to be taught because the scriptures demand it. But the practice of it is the true barometer of how well it is taught.

I am a firm believer in the value of unconditional love. However, what I see repeatedly in the scriptures is conditional love. Which is one of the reasons why I am convinced that what we accept as canon is largely a regurgitation of the teachings of men. Very little is actually God-breathed.

Similarly, when one who lives a different lifestyle than the prescribed one is told "I love you, but I hate what you are doing," the true message is that they are NOT really accepted or loved unconditionally. This feeling of rejection leads to the many problems discussed in the movie -- drug abuse, suicide, depression...all very high statistics from "Happy Valley."

And yet those behaviors are rejected in the larger society also. Resulting in the same problems. I don't see how the problems in Utah can be blamed solely on the church, when society as a whole has the same problems. What is the reason that North Dakota is #2? Can't be the LDS church, that's for sure!

And to change the trend, I think it takes getting past the denial of the problem, and then a greater emphasis on living true unconditional love. And this starts with...the leaders!

Why would you think the church can influence Utah's problems to that extent? First, you have to prove the church is majorly responsible for those problems (the church... not Mormon culture, which is an entirely different animal). Then you have to show how changing the church will impact the problems. And that whole scenario would be difficult, since those same problems exist to a lesser and larger degree, depending on the problem, in other places in the country where the church is not a major influence on the culture.

I'd like to see a much greater emphasis by the leaders on living the gospel of Jesus Christ, rather than on what the church has decided is most important as reflected in the TRI questions. However, that will never happen as long as the leadership of the church suffers so significantly from one of the most important faults: pride. It's difficult to make changes, especially major changes, when the leaders never look inwardly to the source of the problem, but instead blame the followers. Taking responsibility for their personal faults isn't something LDS leaders do well, or often.

[_BishopRic]

I am a firm believer in the value of unconditional love. However, what I see repeatedly in the scriptures is conditional love. Which is one of the reasons why I am convinced that what we accept as canon is largely a regurgitation of the teachings of men. Very little is actually God-breathed.

Agreed.

I don't see how the problems in Utah can be blamed solely on the church, when society as a whole has the same problems. What is the reason that North Dakota is #2? Can't be the LDS church, that's for sure!

The primary problem for addiction is a lack of self-worth, hope and purpose. How that is created/instilled varies (I have no idea why ND is #2 either, but I also know nothing about its culture...). I'm quite clear that the LDS culture creates high and often unrealistic expectations. This leads to inadequacy and its subsequent mental illnesses.

Why would you think the church can influence Utah's problems to that extent? First, you have to prove the church is majorly responsible for those problems

You have to remember that Utah County is 85% LDS. Most members are quite receptive to at least attempt to adhere to what is taught from the pulpits.

I'd like to see a much greater emphasis by the leaders on living the gospel of Jesus Christ, rather than on what the church has decided is most important as reflected in the TRI questions.

Again, I agree. I believe the best mission of any church is to teach its members true tolerance and forgiveness of self and others. If that is lived, the problems this movie discusses will decrease dramatically.

[_harmony]

I don't see how the problems in Utah can be blamed solely on the church, when society as a whole has the same problems. What is the reason that North Dakota is #2? Can't be the LDS church, that's for sure!

The primary problem for addiction is a lack of self-worth, hope and purpose. How that is created/instilled varies (I have no idea why ND is #2 either, but I also know nothing about its culture...). I'm quite clear that the LDS culture creates high and often unrealistic expectations. This leads to inadequacy and its subsequent mental illnesses.

If what you say was actually true, then #2 would be Idaho, #3 would be Arizona, since both of those states have high concentrations of LDS. And that's not the case. So what factors do #1 (UT) and #2 (ND) share? Cold climates resulting in cabin fever for several months a year? Isolation, resulting in crippling loneliness? Sluggish economy resulting in depression from money worries? What I'm saying is there are other factors besides LDS culture that result in similiar problems, so blaming the LDS church for the social ills of society in general isn't fair or correct.

Yes, the LDS culture creates high and often unrealistic expectations... BUT if the rest of your statement was universally true, we'd see elevated addiction, suicide, etc. in other places where LDS members are concentrated, and we don't.

[_BishopRic]

I don't see how the problems in Utah can be blamed solely on the church, when society as a whole has the same problems. What is the reason that North Dakota is #2? Can't be the LDS church, that's for sure!

The primary problem for addiction is a lack of self-worth, hope and purpose. How that is created/instilled varies (I have no idea why ND is #2 either, but I also know nothing about its culture...). I'm quite clear that the LDS culture creates high and often unrealistic expectations. This leads to inadequacy and its subsequent mental illnesses.

If what you say was actually true, then #2 would be Idaho, #3 would be Arizona, since both of those states have high concentrations of LDS. And that's not the case. So what factors do #1 (UT) and #2 (ND) share? Cold climates resulting in cabin fever for several months a year? Isolation, resulting in crippling loneliness? Sluggish economy resulting in depression from money worries? What I'm saying is there are other factors besides LDS culture that result in similiar problems, so blaming the LDS church for the social ills of society in general isn't fair or correct.

Yes, the LDS culture creates high and often unrealistic expectations... BUT if the rest of your statement was universally true, we'd see elevated addiction, suicide, etc. in other places where LDS members are concentrated, and we don't.

Perhaps, but it is the dominance of the culture that is the problem, in my opinion.

What I do know is that I have lived it first, then I have treated it as an addictions counselor later. By far the majority of my clients had issues stemming from the church culture. Of course there are some great, active families that are very open with their kids about these issues, and they do quite well. Those that ignore and deny the problems are the ones that end up with them. I guarantee it.

If you go to the rehab center where I worked for a while, there is a bulletin board of obituaries of dozens of these kids that have died of overdoses, and their stories. It will break your heart if you read them. The common thread is that their families/parents would not listen to them. Many are/were homosexual, and of course they were not accepted at all. When they "strayed," they were just told to pray, read the scriptures, and obey the commandments. The lack of compassion and understanding is the beginning of the chasm that sprouts addiction.

Again, please see the movie and you'll understand what I'm saying. I will re-emphasize that it is not necessarily what is taught, but is common in the culture of Utah County. Recovery begins with simple communication and compassion. This movie may help to trigger some movement in this starved arena.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't see how the problems in Utah can be blamed solely on the church, when society as a whole has the

Yes, the LDS culture creates high and often unrealistic expectations... BUT if the rest of your statement was universally true, we'd see elevated addiction, suicide, etc. in other places where LDS members are concentrated, and we don't.

I think it is the air inversions that are so predominant in Utah County.

[_BishopRic]

I don't see how the problems in Utah can be blamed solely on the church, when society as a whole has the

Yes, the LDS culture creates high and often unrealistic expectations... BUT if the rest of your statement was universally true, we'd see elevated addiction, suicide, etc. in other places where LDS members are concentrated, and we don't.

I think it is the air inversions that are so predominant in Utah County.

That's it! It all starts by huffing...SMOG! Damn gateway drugs....

[_harmony]

Perhaps, but it is the dominance of the culture that is the problem, in my opinion.

Then what culture dominates North Dakota? And why doesn't the dominance of Mormon culture put Idaho and Arizona in the #2 and #3 positions?

I think the culture may be a factor, but I don't see it as the dominant factor. And I don't think you've shown where it is an equal factor in suicides as it may be in addiction.

What I do know is that I have lived it first, then I have treated it as an addictions counselor later. By far the majority of my clients had issues stemming from the church culture. Of course there are some great, active families that are very open with their kids about these issues, and they do quite well. Those that ignore and deny the problems are the ones that end up with them. I guarantee it.

I don't deny your experiences, but I don't see how you can extrapolate your experiences outside of Utah county, to the entire state and to the entire church. It just doesn't mesh close enough with my experiences to convince me that you're completely correct.

If you go to the rehab center where I worked for a while, there is a bulletin board of obituaries of dozens of these kids that have died of overdoses, and their stories. It will break your heart if you read them. The common thread is that their families/parents would not listen to them. Many are/were homosexual, and of course they were not accepted at all. When they "strayed," they were just told to pray, read the scriptures, and obey the commandments. The lack of compassion and understanding is the beginning of the chasm that sprouts addiction.

My office manager is a gay man. He is a Latino and a {nonpracticing} Catholic. The stories of his youth should be similiar to a similiarly inclined LDS youth, since Latinos and Catholics are not exactly kind to their gay youth either. His mental health is excellent, to the extent that he invited to me to go with him to a gay bar a few nights ago, when we were out of town at a staff meeting. Yet heavily Catholic Latino populations don't register on your radar as having a similiar problem with addiction and suicide caused by cultural pressures. Perhaps they don't have similiar problems and only Mormon culture produces these types of problems. I doubt that, but it's possible.

I wonder if you see Mormon culture as the problem simply because that is what you know? That is what you think caused your own problem, so you are extrapolating that out into Mormon culture in general?

Again, please see the movie and you'll understand what I'm saying. I will re-emphasize that it is not necessarily what is taught, but is common in the culture of Utah County. Recovery begins with simple communication and compassion. This movie may help to trigger some movement in this starved arena.

It's hard for me to connect to problems in Utah county, it's true. I live a thousand miles away. I don't see anything remotely resembling those problems in the youth of my stake. The church is bigger than Utah county. If you have that big of a problem, I suggest a local solution, not a church-wide solution.

[_BishopRic]

It's hard for me to connect to problems in Utah county, it's true. I live a thousand miles away.

I think this is important. I doubt you'll find anybody familiar with the Utah County culture that will argue my, or Ron's points. I never said it was a church-wide problem, or even a church problem at all. I'm not suggesting that. It IS a problem with the culture of Utah County. YOu do the extrapolation to figure it out. It just is.

[_harmony]

It's hard for me to connect to problems in Utah county, it's true. I live a thousand miles away.

I think this is important. I doubt you'll find anybody familiar with the Utah County culture that will argue my, or Ron's points. I never said it was a church-wide problem, or even a church problem at all. I'm not suggesting that. It IS a problem with the culture of Utah County. YOu do the extrapolation to figure it out. It just is.

If it is a local problem, then the cause of it can't be laid at the door of Mormon culture in general. Mormon culture may be a part of the problem, but if the problems were caused largely by Mormon culture, we'd see those same problems popping up wherever Mormons are concentrated, which means Idaho and Arizona would be manifesting similiar problems at a similiar rate. Instead, we see North Dakota next on the list. So it behooves us to try to figure out what Utah and North Dakota have in common... and Mormon culture certainly isn't even close.

I'm not denying you've got a problem in Utah county, and I'm all for blaming Mormon culture for problems which it causes. However, I don't see a direct connection between your problem in Utah county and Mormon culture in general. I don't deny that the way Mormon culture is practiced in Utah county may contribute to it, but that is still a local issue, not a church-wide problem.

[_BishopRic]

It's hard for me to connect to problems in Utah county, it's true. I live a thousand miles away.

I think this is important. I doubt you'll find anybody familiar with the Utah County culture that will argue my, or Ron's points. I never said it was a church-wide problem, or even a church problem at all. I'm not suggesting that. It IS a problem with the culture of Utah County. YOu do the extrapolation to figure it out. It just is.

If it is a local problem, then the cause of it can't be laid at the door of Mormon culture in general. Mormon culture may be a part of the problem, but if the problems were caused largely by Mormon culture, we'd see those same problems popping up wherever Mormons are concentrated, which means Idaho and Arizona would be manifesting similiar problems at a similiar rate. Instead, we see North Dakota next on the list. So it behooves us to try to figure out what Utah and North Dakota have in common... and Mormon culture certainly isn't even close.

I'm not denying you've got a problem in Utah county, and I'm all for blaming Mormon culture for problems which it causes. However, I don't see a direct connection between your problem in Utah county and Mormon culture in general. I don't deny that the way Mormon culture is practiced in Utah county may contribute to it, but that is still a local issue, not a church-wide problem.

Alrighty then. Still, see the movie and I think you'll be touched.