Magic Parchment and the Jupiter Talisman

[_Doctor Steuss]

A while back, I came across the online musings of an Orthodox Jew who believed the LDS Church were "trustees of the Book of Mormon" (which he believed to be authentic [yet, I think slightly corrupted] ancient scripture). He stated that he believes the LDS are under the guardian angel Sachiel (the house of Judah being under Michael). My angelology sucks, but from what I could gather, Sachiel is associated with Jupiter.

Coincidence? *shrugs*

[_silentkid]

My angelology sucks, but from what I could gather, Sachiel is associated with Jupiter.

Great Steuss...I think you just gave Nehor another sockpuppet idea.

[_KimberlyAnn]

For those who don't know what a Jupiter talisman looks like, here's a picture of Joseph Smith's:



I have a replica given to me by an ex-Mormon friend. It supposedly protects it's wearer from witchcraft and sorcery. The only time I use it is while browsing MADB.

KA

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I'm skeptical of the talisman for a few reasons. Among them, that no one heard of said talisman before Bidamon came up with it, to my knowledge, also, the talisman was not listed among Smith's personal effects after he was killed. Bidamon could make a few bucks by selling some "Joseph Smith possessions" later in life, and it appears he did so.

I should add, if Joseph Smith owned the talisman I wouldn't care, anyway.

[_KimberlyAnn]

I should have posted a pic of the magic parchment, too. Here it is:



KA

[_Mike Reed]

A while back, I came across the online musings of an Orthodox Jew who believed the LDS Church were "trustees of the Book of Mormon" (which he believed to be authentic [yet, I think slightly corrupted] ancient scripture). He stated that he believes the LDS are under the guardian angel Sachiel (the house of Judah being under Michael). My angelology sucks, but from what I could gather, Sachiel is associated with Jupiter.

Coincidence? *shrugs*

Interesting.

[_Mike Reed]

I'm skeptical of the talisman for a few reasons. Among them, that no one heard of said talisman before Bidamon came up with it, to my knowledge,

Right... but we can't know for sure that "nobody" heard of it, without relying on a negative arguments of sorts. It is unfortunate, however, that there doesn't seem to have been found any corroborating direct evidence (outside of Bidamon's report)... but so things go... visit the Pioneer Memorial Museum and you will see all sorts of artifacts on display that also can't be supported by corroborating direct evidence.

also, the talisman was not listed among Smith's personal effects after he was killed.

Right... but as I mentioned previously, the talisman could have been worn by joseph around his neck, which would have probably gone unnoticed by those collecting Smith's belongings. We also know that Smith had a hat and a gun at the scene, but those weren't on the list either--probably because they fell off or were dropped as Smith jumped from the window.

Bidamon could make a few bucks by selling some "Joseph Smith possessions" later in life, and it appears he did so.

The "sales pitch" argument would have more strength to it, if Bidamon had sold this piece for a significant amount of money. But is my understanding that he didn't, and that this artifact was one of several that he sold. I’d like to get more information on this though, since I am going from memory here.

I should add, if Joseph Smith owned the talisman I wouldn't care, anyway.

Yeah. We already know that Smith was involved in a certain level of Magical/occult practices. We just don't know what that level is. I find Bushman's perspective interesting, that Smith was prepared through his magical quests to receive revelation.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Right... but we can't know for sure that "nobody" heard of it, without relying on a negative arguments of sorts. It is unfortunate, however, that there doesn't seem to have been found any corroborating direct evidence (outside of Bidamon's report)... but so things go... visit the Pioneer Memorial Museum and you will see all sorts of artifacts on display that also can't be supported by corroborating direct evidence.

Big deal. I'm not compelled to accept those artifacts, either.

Right... but as I mentioned previously, the talisman could have been worn by joseph around his neck, which would have probably gone unnoticed by those collecting Smith's belongings. We also know that Smith had a hat and a gun at the scene, but those weren't on the list either--probably because they fell off or were dropped as Smith jumped from the window.

Didn't Bidamon say the talisman (which surfaced, oddly, years later) say it was in Joseph Smith's pocket? I don't recall the exact account. Maybe someone has a source.

The "sales pitch" argument would have more strength to it, if Bidamon had sold this piece for a significant amount of money. But is my understanding that he didn't, and that this artifact was one of several that he sold. I’d like to get more information on this though, since I am going from memory here.

Buyers market.

Yeah. We already know that Smith was involved in a certain level of Magical/occult practices. We just don't know what that level is. I find Bushman's perspective interesting, that Smith was prepared through his magical quests to receive revelation.

Either way, I don't see the talisman as substantiated artifact. It's interesting, but not definite.

[_Mike Reed]

Me: Right... but as I mentioned previously, the talisman could have been worn by joseph around his neck, which would have probably gone unnoticed by those collecting Smith's belongings. We also know that Smith had a hat and a gun at the scene, but those weren't on the list either--probably because they fell off or were dropped as Smith jumped from the window.

LoaP: Didn't Bidamon say the talisman (which surfaced, oddly, years later) say it was in Joseph Smith's pocket? I don't recall the exact account. Maybe someone has a source.

Repost:

Charity makes a good point by noting the age of Bidamon. But I think it would be an overstatement to say that his age of 15 (and the 58 year time period in between) discredits his report entirely. No doubt the greater the time period (and the younger the age), the greater the likelihood that details will evolve in the mind. However, it seems more probable to me that inaccurate details would lie not in the big details like ownership, but rather with more irrelevant ones... like exactly where Smith had it on his person when he was martyred. If Bidamon had inadvertently added the inaccurate detail (perhaps by assumption) that Smith had it in his pocket, rather than the talisman actually hanging around his neck when he was killed, then it would be understandable that it was not listed among Smith's possessions. It does have a hole in it, ya know. It could have easily gone unnoticed by being worn underneath his clothing... as would have likely been the case. Just as Smith and the early saints believed that the garments must touch the skin in order to have its greatest power of protection, it is likely that Smith (if he indeed owned the talisman) believed the talisman should too. At any rate... a key point that Charity does not address is that talisman was likely designed based on illustrations found in The Magus, which is particularly significant since the Smith family parchment (that came from an entirely separate line of inheritance through Hyrum) was also likely designed by using the same source. Like I said, these two artifacts considered together with this circumstantial evidence, seem to have an interesting way of validating each other.

[_John Larsen]

I'm skeptical of the talisman for a few reasons. Among them, that no one heard of said talisman before Bidamon came up with it, to my knowledge, also, the talisman was not listed among Smith's personal effects after he was killed. Bidamon could make a few bucks by selling some "Joseph Smith possessions" later in life, and it appears he did so.

I should add, if Joseph Smith owned the talisman I wouldn't care, anyway.

By all accounts Bidamon was an upstanding individual of good report. Suggesting he perpetrated a fraud to make a few pennies is an unwarranted attack.