Born as 'Sinners'

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Do you believe the view held of many mainstream Christians that we are born of sin and are children of Satan?

 
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

Ephraimsdaughter wrote:I put no. We are born with the capacity to commit sin but we are born sinless. As we get older, we begin to be "naughty" and thus this starts us on the path of sin. We may be born sinless, but all, without exception (excluding Jesus) have sinned and thus we come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

"And Jesus called a little child to him, and set him in the midst of them. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:2-3)

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14 (13-15))

It would appear that Jesus himself thought that small children incapable of sinning as he used them to describe how we should be, in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And the only way we can be come as a little child in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, is to repent of our sins and be baptised.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

"And why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)



Is this also you, pirate?
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_JonasS
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Post by _JonasS »

No Road to Hanna, I am not Ephraimsdaughter. I am POS however (on CARMS).
"HOW DARE YOU KEEP US WAITING!!!!! I demand you post right this very instant or I'll... I'll... I'll hold my breath until I slump over and bang my head against the keyboard resulting in me posting something along the lines of "SR Wphgohbrfg76hou7wbn.xdf87e4iubnaelghe45auhnea4iunh eb9uih t4e9h eibn z"! "-- Angus McAwesome (Jul 21/08 11:51 pm)
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

p.s. pirate, I voted "other" because I believe you have mischaracterized mainstream Christian belief about original sin.



I would further add that the way I understand it, it is more synonymous with the LDS concept of "The Fall," which is simply a fall from grace, a state of being, and not an act. Since Mormons believe in The Fall, it seems to me the only reason they don't believe in original sin is because they misperceive it to be something different.

If the question above were phrased, "Do you believe that humans are born into a condition that includes death?" I would answer yes, and that more closely approximates how I understand the concept of "original sin."
Last edited by Guest on Mon May 19, 2008 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

silentkid wrote:I be born in a test tube. Totally sinless.


"Totally sinless?" How did they extract the sperm, then?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

JonasS wrote:No Road to Hanna, I am not Ephraimsdaughter. I am POS however (on CARMS).



Thanks. Just trying to keep your socks straight.

Speaking of which, I vote that if you only keep one online persona here, it be pirate.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_JonasS
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Post by _JonasS »

the road to hana wrote:p.s. pirate, I voted "other" because I believe you have mischaracterized mainstream Christian belief about original sin.



I would further add that the way I understand it, it is more synonymous with the LDS concept of "The Fall," which is simply a fall from grace, a state of being, and not an act. Since Mormons believe in The Fall, it seems to me the only reason they don't believe in original sin is because they misperceive it to be something different.

If the question above were phrased, "Do you believe that humans are born into a condition that includes death?" I would answer yes, and that more closely approximates how I understand the concept of "original sin."


Perhaps I understood wrong. I just assumed that the majority of Christians were mainstream. When I asked the question, it was with reference to the links I provided from CARMS.

From my own undestanding, I thought that we were perfect as babies, but born into a sinful nature, that we had come from being perfect with God, into a world in which we have the capacity to sin and that we will automatically sin even if we try not to.
"HOW DARE YOU KEEP US WAITING!!!!! I demand you post right this very instant or I'll... I'll... I'll hold my breath until I slump over and bang my head against the keyboard resulting in me posting something along the lines of "SR Wphgohbrfg76hou7wbn.xdf87e4iubnaelghe45auhnea4iunh eb9uih t4e9h eibn z"! "-- Angus McAwesome (Jul 21/08 11:51 pm)
_JonasS
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Post by _JonasS »

the road to hana wrote:
JonasS wrote:No Road to Hanna, I am not Ephraimsdaughter. I am POS however (on CARM).



Thanks. Just trying to keep your socks straight.

Speaking of which, I vote that if you only keep one online persona here, it be pirate.


Dr. Shades wrote:"Totally sinless?" How did they extract the sperm, then?


Hahahaa... Clever.


the road to hana wrote:Thanks. Just trying to keep your socks straight.

Speaking of which, I vote that if you only keep one online persona here, it be pirate.


I intend fully on keeping "imwashingmypirate". See here for the reason why I have JonasS.

Oh, I spelled your name incorrectly, I apologise.
"HOW DARE YOU KEEP US WAITING!!!!! I demand you post right this very instant or I'll... I'll... I'll hold my breath until I slump over and bang my head against the keyboard resulting in me posting something along the lines of "SR Wphgohbrfg76hou7wbn.xdf87e4iubnaelghe45auhnea4iunh eb9uih t4e9h eibn z"! "-- Angus McAwesome (Jul 21/08 11:51 pm)
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Pirate, I was told original sin meant that all persons born were sinful. That this is why newborns needed to be baptized and that those that died before baptism went to hell. Yep, I had issues with that one as a kid and my mum couldn't work it out for me. She told me to go ask someone and he didn't make much sense to me either. Thankfully I didn't believe it for a second.

Anyway, I just looked to see if this thought was taught in some mainstream Churches (outside of my mother and her preacher) and came across this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... in_1.shtml
What is original sin?

Original sin is a Christian doctrine that says that everyone is born sinful. This means that they are born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God.

Original sin is not just this inherited spiritual disease or defect in human nature; it's also the 'condemnation' that goes with that fault.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

JonasS wrote:
the road to hana wrote:p.s. pirate, I voted "other" because I believe you have mischaracterized mainstream Christian belief about original sin.



I would further add that the way I understand it, it is more synonymous with the LDS concept of "The Fall," which is simply a fall from grace, a state of being, and not an act. Since Mormons believe in The Fall, it seems to me the only reason they don't believe in original sin is because they misperceive it to be something different.

If the question above were phrased, "Do you believe that humans are born into a condition that includes death?" I would answer yes, and that more closely approximates how I understand the concept of "original sin."


Perhaps I understood wrong. I just assumed that the majority of Christians were mainstream.


I'm not exactly sure what "mainstream" means, really. There might be a stream, but some might be swimming upstream and some are swimming down.

Seriously, now I think the distinction to be made is what the actual belief is, and what the members believe it to be.

That happens even in Mormonism. There can be a belief, and it can be authoritatively or semi-officially perceived to be one way, but members might be confused in understanding or explaining it.

In Christianity, I think this happens a lot. Understanding of the trinity is just one example of that. Original sin is another.

When I asked the question, it was with reference to the links I provided from CARM.


I don't read CARM, so can't speak to it.

From my own undestanding, I thought that we were perfect as babies, but born into a sinful nature, that we had come from being perfect with God, into a world in which we have the capacity to sin and that we will automatically sin even if we try not to.


That's pretty close to my own understanding and what I understand mainstream Christian belief to be.

The key words there are "sinful nature." As I said before, I perceive those words to mean "as into a world where death exists, we are also born into a world where sin exists." Since Mormons believe that Satan/Lucifer was a fallen angel who fell down with a third of the hosts of heaven and that he has some influence on this world (if not dominion over it), it seems to me that Mormons are on the same page pretty much about that. That is, Mormons believe that all are born into a world where sin exists. I'm not aware of any Mormon belief that there is anyone who has escaped that, except Jesus Christ (Catholics believe Jesus' mother, Mary, escaped it, but generally most Christians just believe Jesus did).

So if "sinful nature" means predisposition to sin, or inclination to sin, or tendency to sin, I think that's the point that is argued. What it doesn't mean (which Mormons never do understand, and Joseph Smith got totally wrong) is that we are responsible for Adam's sin. I don't know any mainstream belief that holds that. I also don't know any mainstream Christian belief that holds that newborn babies are born "in sin." The distinction is that they are born "into sin," just like they are born "into mortality" and "into death." They are also born, generally, healthy, and are born "into the possibility of illness."

Does that make sense?
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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

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