John Larsen wrote:[...]I don't think anyone has made the case that the serpent was used by Hebrews as a symbol of the coming messiah prior to the Christian era. If anyone has any evidence otherwise I would be interested in. [...]
It was however used as a symbol for the first Messiah (Moses). It wasn't a wide-spread use (If I recall correctly), but it was used somewhat. Some traditions suggest that the "brazen serpent" was one of the items that was kept in the ark.
I don’t believe there was ever (or has been) any “symbol” that was used (or is used) to depict the Messiah ben David (nor the Messiah ben Joseph for that matter) within Judaism. Focus on G-d and the Torah tends to leave little room to be enamored with the Messiah(s), and in my opinion the Messiah(s) have always taken a backseat within Judaism (with the exception of Moses, of course).
It was probably appropriated by the Hebrews from the Egyptians--but I am just speculating
John Larsen wrote:Of course, this idea was around by the time of Joseph.
Right. And this is the point that I think is most relevant our discussion.
I think more than anything, the carving points to the idea that Joseph was very interested in symbols and symbolic meaning and there were a lot of things that he believed and professed that have been lost or destroyed.
I think many LDS would be surprised to learn that he had an interest in symbols including the cross.
John Larsen wrote:It was probably appropriated by the Hebrews from the Egyptians--but I am just speculating
I’m personally not wholy convinced that the Jewish people had any "meaningful" contact with the Egyptians prior to the penning of the Pentateuch... but I'm just speculating as well. ;-)
Mike Reed wrote:I think many LDS would be surprised to learn that he had an interest in symbols including the cross.
Mike, you rascal, you.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
John Larsen wrote:It was probably appropriated by the Hebrews from the Egyptians--but I am just speculating
I’m personally not wholy convinced that the Jewish people had any "meaningful" contact with the Egyptians prior to the penning of the Pentateuch... but I'm just speculating as well. ;-)
Mike, you rascal, you.
It is only about 600 miles on foot from Luxor to Jerusalem. The Greeks were well acquainted with Egypt and their mythology. I think it is probable that there was regular contact and awareness. However, it is pretty clear that the Egyptian captivity is unsupported by any evidence.
John Larsen wrote:It was probably appropriated by the Hebrews from the Egyptians--but I am just speculating
I’m personally not wholy convinced that the Jewish people had any "meaningful" contact with the Egyptians prior to the penning of the Pentateuch... but I'm just speculating as well. ;-)
It is only about 600 miles on foot from Luxor to Jerusalem. The Greeks were well acquainted with Egypt and their mythology. I think it is probable that there was regular contact and awareness. However, it is pretty clear that the Egyptian captivity is unsupported by any evidence.
And as I understand it, Egypt was quite the tourist spot in antiquity.
Mike Reed wrote:And as I understand it, Egypt was quite the tourist spot in antiquity.
I think you are confusing your Luxors.
John, Good points. I guess if one takes the approximate 400 BCE dating, it would make perfect sense that there would be substantial cultural contacts between the two. For some odd reason though, I'm begrudgingly holding to at least a 1200 BCE date for the Pentateuch -- substantial later editing notwithstanding (of course I hold to this position with a complete lack of evidence to support it and rely on no other methodology than my sheer tenacity).
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
Mike Reed wrote:I think many LDS would be surprised to learn that he had an interest in symbols including the cross.
There was a cross on the Kirtland temple, If I recall correctly.
Are you referring to the weathervane?
The Nauvoo temple had cruciform stonework around the pentagram windows, and all three of the Smith family magic parchments have crosses on them. Also... Emma Smith made a quilt with the clothes that Hyrum and Joseph wore when they were killed, with pentagram stars and a Greek cross on it. Mainstream Protestants in early 19th century America generally avoided the use of the cross, but I think Smith used it because he was influenced (in part) by folk-magic and freemasonry. I also think the pre-Colombian use of the cross (validating the authenticity of the Book of Mormon) was an additional factor.
Last edited by Hawkeye on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
