gender an eternal concept and reality?

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_Seven
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Seven »

Jason Bourne wrote:In spite of BCs posturing, the idea of evolution, at least as far as how man was created, causes great problems for LDS and Christian doctrine as well. Fundamental to the need to a savior and atonement is Adam's fall. If Adam was not real then I do think there are problems for the rest of the plan of salvation.



The beauty in the symbolism of the fruit and the fall is that it doesn't require a literal Adam and Eve. The plan is not affected by it. We aren't born into a fallen world because of Adam or Eve. She tasted of the fruit [sin] to learn good from evil. We can't know the difference if we have not tasted the fruit of sin. Coming into the fallen world is part of the plan for us to overcome the natural/carnal/sensual/devilish man. What difference does it make if Adam and Eve were real people?
I also do not believe in a literal Satan. There is opposition in all things and in my opinion, Satan is only symbolic of the natural man.


Evolution does cause problems for LDS doctrine [whatever that means] but that is always evolving with continuing revelation. ;)
Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
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_squawkeye
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _squawkeye »

Not fourth or fifth hand with quaker outfits on the moon folk. Brigham Young even said it was so when he also said he believed there were people living on the Sun. Brig must have some Polish blood in him and I bet he would have used Church finances to help pay for the Polish Space Explorers who were going to land on the surface of the Sun... doing so safely by landing at night.
_Sethbag
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Sethbag »

Jason Bourne wrote:Personally this is one of the most troublesome issues regarding my own faith and beliefs.

It was one of those things that opened up a chink in my armor of faith just wide enough to give me a fighting chance, eventually, to recognize that the whole LDS and religious edifice was founded on a base of jello. With carrots.

Don't fight it, Jason. The church isn't really true, and no warm fuzzies, kind neighbors, or happy family experiences are worth having to turn off your brain in order to keep believing.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Sethbag
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Sethbag »

Seven wrote: The beauty in the symbolism of the fruit and the fall is that it doesn't require a literal Adam and Eve. The plan is not affected by it. We aren't born into a fallen world because of Adam or Eve. She tasted of the fruit [sin] to learn good from evil. We can't know the difference if we have not tasted the fruit of sin. Coming into the fallen world is part of the plan for us to overcome the natural/carnal/sensual/devilish man. What difference does it make if Adam and Eve were real people?

By this logic, what does it matter if Jesus Christ were real?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Danna

Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Danna »

DNA evidence pointing to evolution over millions of years is hugely problematic for LDS doctrine, although I can almost hear the standard response as I type:

...I don't have a problem with that!

(which makes me think that there is some sort of subliminal programming going on at church, maybe playing sub-threshold during the hymns "I don't have a problem with evolution, I don't have a problem with polygamy, I don't have a problem with changing doctrine, I don't have a problem with evolution,...")

Standard christians have good reason not to take the Bible literally, similarly to why LDS don't take the Bible literally. What a bummer for Mormons that Joseph Smith took some of the dodgiest concepts from the Bible - young earth creationism, the tower of Babel, the flood - and wrote them into LDS doctrine in stone. In the inerrant PoGP and D&C.

The point when I turned my back, so to speak, transitioning from questioning believer trying to reconcile contradictions, to non-believer, was when I picked up Mormon Doctrine and read that evolution was not compatible with revealed doctrine. Although I subsequently learned that Mormon Doctrine was not Mormon doctrine, B McC was correct on that point.
_Seven
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Seven »

Sethbag wrote:
Seven wrote: The beauty in the symbolism of the fruit and the fall is that it doesn't require a literal Adam and Eve. The plan is not affected by it. We aren't born into a fallen world because of Adam or Eve. She tasted of the fruit [sin] to learn good from evil. We can't know the difference if we have not tasted the fruit of sin. Coming into the fallen world is part of the plan for us to overcome the natural/carnal/sensual/devilish man. What difference does it make if Adam and Eve were real people?

By this logic, what does it matter if Jesus Christ were real?


I knew you would get me on that. :)

I believe Jesus is God, so it does matter to me if He was real.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_solomarineris
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _solomarineris »

Sethbag wrote:You're making excuses again.


"Excuse me?" (Just kidding)

Everybody needs a good, well embellished fantasy. I lived with my fantasies many years, they are good source of comfort, they sustains you in hard times.

Some people cannot shake them loose, the main reason is; You don't achieve your goals in real world, fantasies become godsend crutch.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

It was one of those things that opened up a chink in my armor of faith just wide enough to give me a fighting chance, eventually, to recognize that the whole LDS and religious edifice was founded on a base of jello. With carrots.

Don't fight it, Jason. The church isn't really true, and no warm fuzzies, kind neighbors, or happy family experiences are worth having to turn off your brain in order to keep believing.


It seems that to make it work a more liberal, non literal outlook like Seven talks about above is what is needed. Certainly for me the idea of one true church or even one true religious system is shaky at best. I know this is not a popular view with the hard core believers and disbelievers here.
Last edited by Lem on Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Jason Bourne »


The beauty in the symbolism of the fruit and the fall is that it doesn't require a literal Adam and Eve. The plan is not affected by it. We aren't born into a fallen world because of Adam or Eve. She tasted of the fruit [sin] to learn good from evil. We can't know the difference if we have not tasted the fruit of sin. Coming into the fallen world is part of the plan for us to overcome the natural/carnal/sensual/devilish man. What difference does it make if Adam and Eve were real people?


Well this certainly may work for taking a spiritual view about God and heaven and life. But it poses great problems for Christianity being God's truth to the world and be connection, the LDS Church being the one true church.

But let's just look at Christianity. The whole premise is God created the earth as a paradise and intended his first creations of humans, Adam and Eve, to live in paradise with their offspring forever. But Adam and Eve rebelled, sin and fell from grace and paradise. The messed it up and now sin is in the world, we all sin and we have all been cut off from God cause if you sin, for some odd reason God demands death and blood as the punishment. Now we cannot question this because God is perfectly holy and we are just rotten pieces of clay that he created and can destroy. So, because he loves his imperfect sinful creation he will now send his Son to pay the blood his holy ways demand. All we have to do is accept that Son and His gift, and follow him and we can be made perfect and be with God (return in LDS ideas).

So no Adam, no fall, no need for a literal Savior so who needs Jesus? If by one man Adam comes death and by One Man Christ come eternal life it seems the two are inextricably connected and certainly were in the writers of the New Testament and the theologians that followed.


Now some of this is further complicated by other ideas. Hype Calvinism says God knew all this and planned to save some and damn some right from the start. One then wonders why he put us through it all in that case. In Mormonism Adam and Eve had to fall and we have to be born into a fallen world to experience opposition and be tried in order to test our faithfulness and to develop Christ like attributes. Further Adam is a real character that helped create the world and will return to head up things on the earth before Jesus returns.




Evolution does cause problems for LDS doctrine [whatever that means] but that is always evolving with continuing revelation. ;)


It causes problems for LDS and Christian doctrines unless one becomes a very liberal Christian thinker.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: gender an eternal concept and reality?

Post by _Jason Bourne »


I knew you would get me on that. :)

I believe Jesus is God, so it does matter to me if He was real.



Can you clarify that one please?
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