Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

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_beastie
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _beastie »

I'm continuing to read the MAD thread (it took a while to find a proxy server that would work - I'm not "banned" as a member, but my IP is... lol)

If I still participated on MAD (zero chance of that), I would call Gardner upon this statement:

I haven't called them Jaredites, but I have suggested that Jaredites participated in the culture that was dominant at that time. Their material goods fit the cultural patterns of that location and time.


Oh really? Their "material goods" fit the "cultural pattern"? The jaredite record is one of the most problematic of the Book of Mormon. For one thing, it describes metallurgy in such detail that is not possible to discount it as a minor translation error. For another, it describes such a socially complex civilization that only the most advanced and powerful Olmec cities could hope to qualify - the very cities that established the religious pattern for the rest of the culture.

As just one example, Sorenson suggests San Lorenzo as the city of Lib. From my already linked website, I state the following:

As already stated, Sorenson has offered San Lorenzo as a candidate for the city that Lib and his followers built. Although dates are not included for the Jaredite section of the Book of Mormon, a genealogy is that gives the reader a rough idea of how much time has passed since the first landing of the Jaredites in the New World. Lib is 16 generations removed from the first landing. If we accept the later dating of 1500 BC and grant approximately 25 years for a generation, Lib would be around 1100 BC.




Ether 10

18 And it came to pass that Kish passed away also, and Lib reigned in his stead.

19 And it came to pass that Lib also did that which was good in the sight of the Lord. And in the days of Lib the poisonous serpents were destroyed. Wherefore they did go into the land southward, to hunt food for the people of the land, for the land was covered with animals of the forest. And Lib also himself became a great hunter.

20 And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.




Again, from Diehl’s book The Olmec, page 27:




“Excavations at San Lorenzo have revealed three phases of occupation prior to its emergence as a full-blown city at 1200 BC; Ojochi (1500-1350 BC), Bajio (1350-1250 BC), and Chicharras (1250-1150 BC). Remains of these occupations lie deeply buried under later debris but even so, recent excavations suggest that San Lorenzo covered at least 200 ha (49 acres) by 1250 BC. Surveys in the 400-sq. km (155-sq. mile) region around San Lorenzo identified more than 100 Bajio and Chicharras-phase sites that formed a complex three-tiered settlement hierarchy with the village of San Lorenzo at its apex. The subsidiary communities included nine small villages and scores of small hamlets and farmsteads. Most settlements were located on high ground that did not flood, but yet provided access to fresh water and fluvial transport. San Lorenzo was the largest village in the region and seems to have dominated the entire zone even at this early time, perhaps receiving food and other tribute from its subordinates….


By 1200 BC the Olmec world was experiencing cultural ferment as processes that had begun three or four centuries earlier coalesced into a new rich and flamboyant civilization of as sort that never existed before in Mesoamerica. All of Niederberger’s six characteristics of civilization already existed in at least incipient form as emerging social, political, economic, religious, and artistic realities began to transform local cultures as well as those in other parts of Mesoamerica. San Lorenzo was the primary hearth of this new civilization.”

This aptly demonstrates the problem facing Book of Mormon scholars. Due to the fact that the book of Ether describes a fairly stratified society, complete with formal positions of leadership, only a precocious city such as San Lorenzo would be a fitting candidate. Yet, by the very fact of being forced to choose a preciously developed polity like San Lorenzo scholars face another problem. This problem is the evolving ideology of ancient Mesoamerica. How could the ideology of ancient Mesoamerica spread to the extent it did when the most powerful polities of the period were actually being led by Judeo-Christian leaders?

To further illustrate this problem, the following is another citation from Diehl’s book, page 29:


“San Lorenzo emerged as Mesoamerica’s first city, and perhaps the oldest urban center anywhere in the Americas, by 900 BC. By then it covered 500 ha (1,235 acres), had several thousand permanent residents, and exhibited the full range of urban characteristics outlined by Christine Niederberger: political and religious power, social ranking, planned public architecture, highly skilled craftspeople, control of interregional trade networks, and complex intellectual achievements. Today it is clear that the Olmec capitals at San Lorenzo and La Venta were what William T. Sanders and David Webster define as Regal-Ritual Cities: urban centers that have highly developed ritual functions but fairly modest populations, relatively weak, decentralized rulership, and limited economic functions. Regal-Ritual Cities were common in later Mesoamerican societies, where only Teotihuacan, Tula, and Tenochtitlan and a few other mega-centers advanced beyond this state.”


The idea of suggesting that the most powerful polities in the Olmec culture were really led by Judeo-Christians would be the logical equivalent of suggesting that Vatican City is led by Muslims.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Trevor
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:But even accepting that fact, knowing the ancient Mesoamerican’s obsession with kinghood and the sacred nature of leadership lineage, and how the king was actually the primary religious leader makes it so unlikely that these “others” would have made Nephi their king that it could be comparable to the likelihood that aliens actually helped ancient Egyptians build the pyramids.


Thanks for dropping by and bringing your special knowledge to bear on this discussion, beastie.

I have some devil's advocate questions, which I am offering from a position of almost complete ignorance on the subject of ancient Mesoamerica.

Who decided which person would be king, thus initiating a dynastic claim?

Were there any peripheral communities, not tightly associated with or controled by a large polity, that might have elected to place themselves under someone they identified as kingly for whatever reason?
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _beastie »

Who decided which person would be king, thus initiating a dynastic claim?

Were there any peripheral communities, not tightly associated with or controled by a large polity, that might have elected to place themselves under someone they identified as kingly for whatever reason?


These are good questions, Trevor, and I’m probably going to provide more information than you were really looking for, but I’ve been laid up with a cold for a couple of days and am bored, so am probably going to spend too much time on it.

Large polities that could said to qualify as having a “king” were the evolutionary result of the growth of smaller polities that had “Big Men” as leaders. See my citation of Demarest’s explanation of the different levels of social complexity (from my website)

Box 2 Traditional typologies of “level” of political complexity in human societies

Traditionally archaeologists and anthropologists sought to classify ancient or modern societies in order to facilitate comparison and discussion. The most popular traditional typologies have been those proposed by Morton Fried based on the degree of stratification, i.e. social inequality, in societies, and by Elman Service based on the degree of political and economic integration of societies.

Service: integration typology

Bands: small, loosely integrated groups of hunters and gatherers that possess a common territory in which they move nomadically. They have few differences in wealth or status and are characterized by reciprocal economic relations. Integration is through kinship or marriage.

Tribes: Larger societies, often with agricultural and/or pastoral economies, living in permanent (sedentary) locations. Tribes are often multi-settlement societies integrated by theoretical descent groups and voluntary association organizations (for example, warrior clubs, religious cults, fraternal organizations, etc.)

Chiefdoms: Often larger societies in which social integration is facilitated by the existence of prestigious leaders who direct warfare and storage or redistribution of food. Individuals are ranked in their status according to their degree of kinship relationship to the chief. Chiefdoms sometimes have ceremonial centers as the focus of religious activities, redistribution, and social integration.

States: Societies with highly integrated, organized, and centralized leadership with a governing body or rulers. The power of the ruler is backed by coercive force, law, and/or religious sanctions.


Fried: stratification typology

Egalitarian societies: Simple societies with as many positions of status as there are people to fill them. Wealth, status, and power are acquired, not inherited. There are relatively small differences in wealth, and economic relations are reciprocal in nature.

Ranked societies: Societies in which there are fewer positions of status than individuals to fill them. In some cases there are a fixed number of offices, but the competition to fill them is not entirely hereditary.
Economic differences are somewhat restricted by expectations of redistribution by the societies’ leaders.

Stratified societies: Societies in which positions of status are fixed and largely hereditary. A class structure and coercive force maintain these differences.

[The state]: A special function institution of some stratified societies that legitimizes stratification through governing bodies, laws, and police structures to maintain internal order and control class conflict.


Current debate on evolutionary typologies

More recent discussion in archaeology has been highly critical of such universally applied typologies, since they ignore many characteristics, mask internal variability in societies, and, arguably, impose an ethnocentric, evolutionary scheme. Others argue that these designations are useful in practice, if only as loose, broad, comparative designations.

Alternative approaches include multivariate assessments of societies based on many different variables, including degree of inequality, heterogeneity, centralization, and other traits. Many contemporary “postprocessual” theorists reject linear evolutionary typologies of any kind as stereotyping and potentially racist generalizations that pigeonhole societies into a Western materialist presumed hierarchy of development.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?), in the case of the rise of Maya civilization, such typological, terminological, and epistemological debates seldom arise; the data on the early development of lowland Maya civilization is currently so poor that it virtually defies synthesis and interpretation. The earliest Preclassic societies in the Maya lowlands are identified primarily by ceramic deposits. The first sites with public architecture (eg Nakbe and Cerros) were left by societies that were already at a fairly high level of complexity (however that might be designated). Here terms such as bands, chiefdoms, or states are used as only very broad, convenient descriptive terms.


I highlighted what I think is the most pertinent information for this discussion. From the description of social complexity given within the bulk of the Book of Mormon commentary, these polities would have been at a state level. This is important to understand because this means the Book of Mormon polities would have been among the most large and powerful of the time period, not some minor polity that existed and faded away without impacting the larger culture (which LGT requires).

Of course, at Nephi’s arrival, we would not be discussing a state. Initially, when he took “all who would go with him”, he would have been talking about a very small group of people, and who knows what they would have meant by electing him their “king”. Such a small group would have not had any social discrepancies nor the population that would require social organization. I would be forced to assume they’re just choosing him as their shaman. Of course it is quite possible that some small group that wasn’t attached to any larger polity would choose their own shaman based on their own impression of his spiritual power. This is somewhat counter to the basic organization of ancient Mesoamerica, however, as by this point the social organization seemed to be a powerful religious center that had smaller, satellite polities that were under its purview, although they may have had their own minor leaders. However, I’m sure it wasn’t impossible that some small polity in the middle of nowhere could have been unattached. So at initial point we’re just talking about the illogic of a group of people, even unattached to a larger polity, would not only accept but embrace the group of Judeo-Christians and determine that the Judeo-Christian leader would be an appropriate shaman for them without a conversionary experience to Judeo-Christianity (as well as the miraculous “gift of tongues” that would enable them to communicate). Not only is this extraordinarily unlikely in the first place, but the idea that such a miraculous conversion could have taken place without mention in the Book of Mormon text is even more unlikely. The authors of the Book of Mormon explicitly state that their purpose is to convert people to Jesus, and they wouldn’t mention this most miraculous conversion??? Riiiight.

Now, the second point at which Nephi was made king was more problematic. Because of the description of socially inequities listed by Jacob, they had to be attaching themselves to a pre-existing polity. This is why Sorenson suggests Kaminaljuyu. At this point in ancient Mesoamerican history, with our current knowledge base, not many polities in Mesoamerica were this complex, either, hence the necessity of choosing a precocious, powerful polity. A very small group of unattached individuals such as could possible occur at meeting point one would not experience the social discrepancies described for a very, very, very long time, (many hundreds of years) unless they joined with another pre-existing, more complex and advanced polity. As I already mentioned, Kaminaljuyu already had built an irrigation system. From my website:

From Handbook to Life in the Ancient Maya World by Lynn Foster, page 307:

By 700 B.C.E., Kaminaljuyu had constructed an irrigation canal fed by a nearby lake. In the rainier tropical lowlands, however, massive irrigation systems were not usually necessary, although arid northern Yucatan could have used them, if only they had had the water to do so. Small-scale systems of ditches and drains have been identified at many sites in the southern lowlands; canals sometimes encircled sacred centers such as that at Cerros, serving perhaps both agricultural and defensive purposes.

From the same text:

Kaminaljuyu

One of the most powerful Preclassic cities, Kaminaljuyu occupied the highland valley now occupied by Guatemala City. Situated only 20 kilometers (12 miles) from one of the most important obsidian sources in the Maya region, Kaminaljuyu grew from a small Middle Preclassic Period settlement into the dominant city in the southern region during the Late Preclassic. Its construction included extensive canals and earthen pyramids; its rulers were buried in some of the wealthiest tombs then known; and its art included many stelae in the Izapan style. At the beginning of the Early Classic Period, the city contracted and was depopulated until the central Mexican city of Teotihuacan probably conquered it in the fourth century C.E. and used it as a base for its trade operations in the region. The city was occupied into the Postclassic Period, but after the Early Classic period, it never rose again to be a major power. It was abandoned by the time of the Spanish Conquest. (p 109)

New centers emerged in the central Guatemala highlands at this period (middle preclassic), probably because the flat plateaus became more habitable due to diminishing volcanic activity. All these new settlements were well situated for trade. Kaminaljuyu in the Valley of Guatemala, for example, could control nearby obsidian sources, but it was also in an enviable position to command trade between the Caribbean and the Pacific coast through the river routes in the Motagua Valley, and through the highland pass down to the Pacific. Cacao, obsidian, and jade were part of the valuable trade that would expand in the Late Preclassic, making Kaminaljuyu flourish into one of the most important cities of that period. By 700 B.C.E., Kaminaljuyu already had constructed a major irrigation canal, and by 500 B.C.E., it began carving freestanding stone slabs called stelae. (page 30)

Kaminaljuyu grew from a small center in the Valley of Guatemala in 500 B.C.E. to a capital city dominating the terminal Preclassic period. Although the sprawl of modern Guatemala City has destroyed much of the ancient site and made a careful reconstruction of its development impossible, Kaminaljuyu in its final phase (Early Classic) was a city of more than 200 earthen and adobe-plastered mounds in contrast to approximately 80 at Izapa. The majority of the mounds dated to the Late Preclassic period. Some were 20 meters (66 feet) high and once supported adobe or wooden temples with thatched roofs. One massive structure, judging from the rich tombs it contained, must have been an ancestor shrine dedicated to deceased rulers. An artificial canal, built c. 400 B.C.E. to replace one from the Middle Preclassic Period, fed a vast irrigation system. Great platforms with temples and what may have been a palace courtyard complex were constructed; stelae, some almost 2 meters (6 feet) tall, were carved in low relief, with hieroglyphic inscriptions.

Kaminaljuyu was more powerful and wealthier than any other city in the southern region during this period. Kaminaljuyu influences can be seen at other highland sites and from the Salama Valley to El Baul and Chalchuapa. Although population estimates for Kaminaljuyu cannot be made because of the destruction of the site, tens of thousands of laborers, probably drawn from all over the valley, were necessary to construct and maintain the city.

Many archaeologists believe that the centralized power required to organize such public works would have been beyond that of a mere chiefdom. And the stelae cult probably served to glorify the rulers of such an incipient state. One tomb – Bural C in Structure E-III-3 – is the richest yet discovered anywhere in the Maya realm for the Late Preclassic Period. Its more than 300 artifacts – jade, obsidian, quartz crystals, entire sheets of mica, stingray spines (known to be used by Maya royalty for autosacrifice), fish teeth, and, of course, ceramics including Usultan-ware – certainly suggest that its occupant, accompanied by four sacrificed individuals, was a Kaminaljuyu king. The burial contents also demonstrate the extensive trade and wealth of this strategically located city. (page 38)


In response to your question, yes, for the first meeting period, it is possible that a small group could be unattached to another polity and choose their own shaman. I do not think it is possible, however, that this small group would have been theologically unattached. The religious Mesoamerican worldview was pervasive and powerful, and had been in place for well over a thousand years. It was a very “successful” theology in terms of its influence. So this small group would have likely adhered to the religious theology of Mesoamerica, so would have had to have a religious conversion to Judeo-Christianity to elect Nephi as their shaman. (as well as the gift of miraculous communication across language boundaries)

But it is not possible for the second meeting (ie, the founding of the City of Nephi). The second meeting, due to the social discrepancies described, had to entail joining with a pre-existing, rather powerful and complex polity. This would have been an already established polity with an already established lineage, based on the long-term evolution of a shaman into a Big Man, into a king. The idea that an already successful, established polity would suddenly convert to Judeo-Christianity and elect Nephi as king defies logic. Of course, as I stated earlier, it would be a miracle. Scriptures contain miracles, but they make quite a fuss over them. I think it is logically impossible for such a miraculous conversion to take place and for Nephi to not mention it. It would have been celebrated and even exaggerated in order to emphasize the power of the gospel, not totally ignored.

Aside from that, if a powerful, advanced polity really embraced Judeo-Christianity, then we would see the influence of Judeo-Christianity in ancient Mesoamerica. The most powerful polities had a heavy influence on the rest of the region. A powerful Judeo-Christian polity would have exerted a detectable influence on the cultural evolution of ancient Mesoamerica. This, in my opinion, is the most serious problem facing Book of Mormon apologists. LGT not only requires a limited geography, it also requires a limited influence. To justify that lack of any trace of Judeo-Christian theology in the evolution of ancient Mesoamerica, apologists must assume the stance that Book of Mormon polities were minor and not influential. However, this contradicts the social complexity described in the Book of Mormon. Polities described in the Book of Mormon had to be precociously developed in terms of social complexity and organization, given what we know about ancient Mesoamerica in general. Any polity as powerful and complex of those described in the Book of Mormon would have spearheaded the social and cultural evolution of the entire region. This is the conundrum I describe at length here:

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/holylord.htm

If my verbosity cloaked my actual response to your question, let me know and I’ll clarify.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _beastie »

Ha. I already stated that apologists/believers engage in self-contradiction when they insist that written text cannot be logically interpreted in a literal fashion due to the agendas and propaganda of their human authors but then simultaneously insist that the Book of Mormon cannot be falsified due to the lack of written text. This is a contradiction because the reason we know that written texts are unreliable is due to the information we obtain from dirt archaeology. In other words, dirt archaeology provides useful and sometime detailed information about ancient cultures. That's how we know written texts are often unreliable.

But even I could not have predicted that a believer would immediately provide proof of my assertion (although I could have predicted that cdowis would be the most likely to do so).

This is from cdowis' "anachronism" thread:

Anachronisms include the ability to prove that it is anachronistic.

Please supply specific references for one or more items on your list. To help you, please feel free to use any codex, any written records from the Book of Mormon time period to document your case. Each of these items are ****ideas**** and, short of actually producing individuals who lived in that time period (which requires a time machine), we require extensive written records.

Finding "negative evidence" requires a wide range of documents, in this case on religion. How many religions existed at this time, what were their doctrines, their practices for each of those cults.

Now, please tell us how many written records are extant from the preclassic, the Book of Mormon, time period. 1000.....100.......10.....5.....1..... less than one?

Patiently awaiting your response.

I think you are full of hot air, but let's see what you got.


You can't make this stuff up. It would be unbelievable to present it as fiction.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Trevor
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _Trevor »

beastie,

I agree with you that the mass conversion on indigenous peoples to Israelite religion and the installation of Nephi as the king over a large polity all within a relatively short space of time is extremely unlikely.

To continue to play devil's advocate, though, I take up the argument.

You appear to be using this set of categories for levels of civilization to determine what kind of society the Nephites and others could or should have had based on population. Where there are preexisting royal traditions in place, however, that would probably affect the model of sovereignty that would be privileged and emulated, regardless of population.

For example, if Israelite tradition at the time Lehi departed Jerusalem favored kings, it would seem reasonable to me that they would call their appointed leader king under the right circumstances, regardless of their numbers. They could be a band of 100 or a large group of 1000.

It is also important for your readers to remember that all of these classifications are the result of anthropological studies and theory. They are not prescriptive. Furthermore, it is not necessarily the case that a word translated as "king" can't refer to a shaman or a big man. The understanding of the translator or author makes a big difference. To cite a uniquely LDS case, Joseph Smith was anointed king of the kingdom of God over a group of around 10,000 people max. Judging by the predominant view of kingship of his time, such a gesture was farcical, and yet within the tradition he was building it made all the sense in the world.

If one believed in ancient Nephites, could they not view Nephi's kingship in similar terms? Since the Nephite culture was responsible for the records, could they not depict Nephi as they chose and fail to accurately portray the perspectives of others?

You see, once the antiquity of the text is assumed, there are many ways to envision the possibility, even if highly improbable, that these problems do work themselves out, when viewed with the right perspective.
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _beastie »

Trevor,

Sorry I wasn't clear. I do not object to the Nephites calling a shaman a king at all. My objection is that both points of contact would require a miraculous conversionary event which is completely ummentioned in the Book of Mormon.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Gadianton
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _Gadianton »

gadianton wrote:who am I to convince them otherwise?


A good man who will defend what you believe to be true at all costs .

quote wrote:How does one go about disproving the existence of a lost civilization (or, even worse, lost subculture--think LGT), the only purported evidence of which exists in an English text produced in the 19th century?


A fantastic question. I think I did a post once here drawing attention to a pinned thread by Hamblin a couple years(?) ago on MADB where he makes this point. Indeed, how could one prove that there isn't a spec of dust left in that little corner of the room? More difficulty than proving the extinction of the Do Do bird, for sure. The geography of the Book of Mormon will shrink small enough that it will fit into my backyard if that's what it takes.

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

quote wrote:The LDS prophet and apostles have decided that the book is either what it says it is--an ancient text--or it is a fraud, so the line has been drawn, and the apologists will hold the line.


As you say Trevor, the mantle if far greater. (and so is the l-skinny)

How many of us hold beliefs that have not been and cannot be verified?


Everyone. Though, not everyone is willing to stake 10% of their income on those beliefs or suicide bomb for them, or insist they are true or unchangeable and spend their entire lives fabricating new defenses for them.

I am not convinced that humans, as social creatures, can be free of things like religion.


Niether am I. But thanks to critics and the social progress of secular man, Mormonism is far less dangerous that it would be if it had been left unchecked. Just a few more metaphors for some of the apologists and they'll be as harmless as Unitarians.
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _beastie »

A fantastic question. I think I did a post once here drawing attention to a pinned thread by Hamblin a couple years(?) ago on MADB where he makes this point. Indeed, how could one prove that there isn't a spec of dust left in that little corner of the room? More difficulty than proving the extinction of the Do Do bird, for sure. The geography of the Book of Mormon will shrink small enough that it will fit into my backyard if that's what it takes.


Exactly.

However, this will only work with people who are unfamiliar with the history of ancient Mesoamerica. (which, given the general ignorance on this subject, does leave the apologists fairly safe) This requires a very minor polity without the ability to influence the larger cultural and religious evolution of the rest of ancient Mesoamerica. However, the polities described in the Book of Mormon, considering their social complexity and advanced level of organization (heck, at one point they have lawyers!) would actually be the most developed and complex polities in the entire region and hence, the very polities that directed the cultural and religious evolution of the rest of the region.

Sure, the discoveries are ongoing, but for this reality to change, discoveries would have to be made that fundamentally alter everything scholars currently accept about ancient Mesoamerica. It would have to end up being populated by tons of city-states without those same city-states necessarily having the power to influence the entire region. (currently, we understand there were so few city-states that they had immense power to influence the entire region) I feel safe predicting that kind of discovery ain't ever gonna take place. It would have been easier to hope for such a radical shift in scholarly perceptions of ancient Mesoamerica prior to the decoding of the Mayan glyphs. Since the cracking of the glyphs, that kind of radical shift is about as likely as my earlier example of suddenly discovering serious evidence that aliens really did build the egyptian pyramids.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Trevor
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:Trevor,

Sorry I wasn't clear. I do not object to the Nephites calling a shaman a king at all. My objection is that both points of contact would require a miraculous conversionary event which is completely ummentioned in the Book of Mormon.


It is not clear to me that the text must mention such an event.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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Re: Check out the FAIR/MAD thread going on...

Post by _beastie »

It is not clear to me that the text must mention such an event.


Well, that is the reply of the apologists to this point.

To me, it strains credulity to suggest that a text whose authors openly declared its purpose to be to bring souls to Christ, and then proceeded to share other remarkable conversion stories to do so, would strangely remain completely silent about the most amazing conversion story of all.

If that makes sense to you, the apologists will be very happy. Their entire argument hinges on the idea that the authors would be under no compunction to mention it. To me, it makes no sense whatsoever. This is a text that talked about arguably minor details of how Nephi led his people, and yet remains silent on this amazing conversionary event - which occurred not once, but twice.

Why in the world would Nephi omit such an amazing conversionary event, in your opinion? I believe you agree with me that such an event would be frankly miraculous in occurence, as there is nothing in ancient Mesoamerican history or worldview that would suggest an already powerful polity would abandon their already succesful, established, sacred lineage and elect a Judeo-Christian (who didn't even speak their language) as their religious leader and king. It would be a stunning miracle, like onto the later story of the conversion of the Lamanites, led by their queen and king (who should have stinketh). It would surpass the miracle of Ammon. Yet no mention of it? Why? Would it not be a demonstration of the amazing power of the spirit of God?

Do you concede my point that if a Judeo-christian had been the religious leader of one of the most powerful polities in ancient Mesoamerica, then that same polity would have had an notable affect on the cultural and religious evolution of ancient Mesoamerica?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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