The Tiers of Apologetics

[Guest]

.

No I don't believe in peter pan. But as far as Christ, we know that he probably existed. It is only a question of whether he was the son of god. At the time of Paul, I am sure that witnesses heard of what happened to Christ and it could be verified by the witnesses at least two generations after the event. Unfortunately there is no written record of witnesses.

[_maklelan]

Come on, man. You have to know that it's b***s*** by now.

How about you go project on someone else?

[_harmony]

It's kind of like, every single minute of service performed by a missionary during their "service hours" also has ulterior motives.

That's not true at all. I did hundreds of hours of service on my mission without ever mentioning the church. I honestly wanted to serve other people and make them happy. My mission president didn't at all disapprove. Why don't you gather facts instead of just inventing them?

Actually, in his very cynical way, Gad is right. A mission is, by definition, 2 years of service. So every single minute of the mission is designed as service... whether the service is teaching someone the gospel or pruning someone's roses, the only agenda for the entire 2 years is to be of service constantly. Unless, of course, you don't think that teaching someone the gospel is doing them a service.

If and when you give service after the mission, then you aren't following Gad's premise, so you could complain about his cynicism... but not with regards to the mission.

Now back to your regularly scheduled agenda.

[_harmony]

.

No I don't believe in peter pan. But as far as Christ, we know that he probably existed. It is only a question of whether is was the son of god. At the time of Paul, I am sure that witnesses heard of what happened to Christ and it could be verified by the witnesses at least two generations after the event. Unfortunately there is no written record of witnesses.

Kinda like the witnesses in the Sacred Grove. Or in Joseph's bedroom during Moroni's visits.

[_maklelan]

Actually, in his very cynical way, Gad is right. A mission is, by definition, 2 years of service. So every single minute of the mission is designed as service... whether the service is teaching someone the gospel or pruning someone's roses, the only agenda for the entire 2 years is to be of service constantly.

But this isn't the ulterior motive to which he was referring. He was insisting that all the service is done in an attempt to get the proselytizing foot in the door. He would have no reason to sneer at service in and of itself, or associate it with "apologetics."

[_why me]

Actually, in his very cynical way, Gad is right. A mission is, by definition, 2 years of service. So every single minute of the mission is designed as service... whether the service is teaching someone the gospel or pruning someone's roses, the only agenda for the entire 2 years is to be of service constantly. Unless, of course, you don't think that teaching someone the gospel is doing them a service.

If and when you give service after the mission, then you aren't following Gad's premise, so you could complain about his cynicism... but not with regards to the mission.

Now back to your regularly scheduled agenda.

Not quite. The idea of a mission is to be an evangelist and proclaim the gospel. Now of course, service can be given in other ways but not at the expense of proclaiming the gospel.

[_why me]

Kinda like the witnesses in the Sacred Grove. Or in Joseph's bedroom during Moroni's visits.

And if there were witnesses in the sacred grove or in the bedroom, it would have not mattered at all. It would have received the same disregard as the 11 witnesses. However, we do have 11 witnesses and their wives as a testament of the Book of Mormon...unless of course, the witnesses lied to their lives throughout their lives.

[_harmony]

But this isn't the ulterior motive to which he was referring. He was insisting that all the service is done in an attempt to get the proselytizing foot in the door. He would have no reason to sneer at service in and of itself, or associate it with "apologetics."

Since missions are pure service, and the service that the mission is designed for is as you say, getting the proselytizing foot in the door, he is, unfortunately, right.

Unless, of course, you're saying you did service wherever you wanted to on your mission, wearing sweats and a tee shirt, leaving your white shirt and nametag in your apartment. Because if you went where you were sent, and wore your nametag, you went as missionaries, not as ordinary young men cruising the neighborhood, looking to give service to those in need of it.

Don't ya hate it when he's right?

Now back to your regularly scheduled agenda.

[_harmony]

Kinda like the witnesses in the Sacred Grove. Or in Joseph's bedroom during Moroni's visits.

And if there were witnesses in the sacred grove or in the bedroom, it would have not mattered at all. It would have received the same disregard as the 11 witnesses. However, we do have 11 witnesses and their wives as a testament of the Book of Mormon...unless of course, the witnesses lied to their lives throughout their lives.

Produce the witnesses for the First Vision in the Sacred Grove, whyme. Otherwise, you look like you don't understand the importance of witnesses.

[_why me]

Produce the witnesses for the First Vision in the Sacred Grove, whyme. Otherwise, you look like you don't understand the importance of witnesses.

And if there were witnesses to the first vision, it would not matter at all to the critics. Heck, the 11 witnesses do not matter. why would witnesses to the first vision matter? It would go like this:

Critic: the witnesses to the first vision were tricked into believing that they saw something. But actually, it was all contrived by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith was a good fraud and he could have fooled the witnesses to the sacred grove vision.

Or, the witnesses to the sacred grove were in on the fraud. Joseph Smith was a con artist abeit, a pious one.

So it would go. And it would certainly not matter to you harmony.