Leaders no longer get a personal visit of Jesus?

[_Morrissey]

That's actually quite bothersome to me. If the GAs aren't really seeing Jesus or God, but the membership thinks they do, and they're coy about it but leave the impression/implication that they really do see them, then that's a little dishonest in my book.

And yes, saying "we don't talk about such things, they're too sacred" really only makes sense if they really are seeing Jesus and/or God. If they're not seeing them, then there's nothing there to be sacred. And what exactly is "too sacred" about Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who proclaim themselves to be Jesus's deputies on Earth, actually proclaiming their personal visitations? I would rather expect that of them, but hell, what do I know?

I must confess that this topic is one of the things that challenges my faith most. I'm willing to accept a lot of the supernatural claims from LDS history, but then we come to present time, and there seems to be a totally different practice regarding heavenly visits.

My other problem is, what exactly are they discussing during these visits? Apparently nothing of much substance. Like when Jesus appeared to President Hinckley, what was running through Hinckley's head?

"Well, I could ask what we should do about genocides in Sierra Leone and Rwanda... I could get some clarification on whether God the Father was once a man... I can find out if there really is global climate change..." and then the question he decides on is:
"Lord, how many earrings are appropriate for a woman to wear?"

I mean, WTF?

Who needs guidance on trivial issues such as genocide when God is so busy with such weighty matters as personal grooming?

I mean, really, does it not appear that the all-knowing and wise heavenly father is underutilizing his #1 asset on earth?

[_RockSlider]

I’ll do this paraphrase no justice but here goes anyway:

History of the Church … in the Kirtland temple, Joseph Smith is ordaining the 12 and compels them with the following:

“Your ordination is not complete until Jesus lays his hands on your head …”

The same concept was originally taught about receiving one’s calling and election and I believe dealt with the concept of Jesus washing the man’s feet (the man washed his wives, sorry ladies).

Something about “Special Witness” comes to mind … and I never understood the distinction that others, like 70’s would claim “Especial Witness” or something like that.

When GBH did the infamous interview, I think this is the thing that hurt me the most … his statements about his communication with God. I assume you don't hear many claims anymore of this "Special Witness"

[_Sethbag]

Sometimes one of us will post the question, why does Jesus never tell the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators any of the answers that really bug some of us, like the true nature of the Adam and Eve story, a true description of the Flood, the solution to the Book of Abraham papyrus problems, whether organic evolution really happened, how long homo sapiens have been on the Earth, and so forth.

Seriously, these are credibility-destroying topics that really make the scriptures and prophets look bad. And yet we get nothing from Jesus. He comes down, supposedly, talks to the leaders of the church, and yet he won't say a word about any of this?

The apologists find ways of explaining how this is just as it ought to be, because Jesus only tells them what we really need to know, like faith, repentance, obedience to our church authority figures, and so forth.

But is this really the scriptural model? What about God appearing to Abraham and showing him all things, from the beginning right up till the end? And it's not as if this was all "too sacred" for Abraham to share, because he included the whacky astronomy part of it in his own personal account in the Book of Abraham.

[_RockSlider]

It has my hope and belief that Lehi/Nephi’s vision of the tree of life was available to all who proved worthy (see the beginning to the end)

[_William Schryver]

StructureCop:

I must confess that this topic is one of the things that challenges my faith most. I'm willing to accept a lot of the supernatural claims from LDS history, but then we come to present time, and there seems to be a totally different practice regarding heavenly visits.

My other problem is, what exactly are they discussing during these visits? Apparently nothing of much substance. Like when Jesus appeared to President Hinckley, what was running through Hinckley's head?

"Well, I could ask what we should do about genocides in Sierra Leone and Rwanda... I could get some clarification on whether God the Father was once a man... I can find out if there really is global climate change..." and then the question he decides on is:
"Lord, how many earrings are appropriate for a woman to wear?"

I mean, WTF?

I must confess that when I read things like your post above, I just have to scratch my head and wonder: is it possible that someone can really have read the scriptures, served a mission, etc., and yet still be so completely ignorant about the nature, economy, and appropriate expectations for revelation in varying contexts?

And yet, I have seen it so often in the past few years of frequenting message boards where disbelievers and apostates congregate, that it has become apparent to me that when the Savior says, “My sheep hear my voice,” He is also acknowledging that, through no fault of His own, there are some—even many—who will choose to not hear His voice.

How can you not easily distinguish between counsel that originates in revelation and has eternal application (The Family—A Proclamation to the World) and counsel that is much more culturally-oriented and transitory in nature? It is so obvious to so many of us. And yet reading this message board it becomes painfully apparent that most of you have most likely NEVER actually made a revelatory connection with God, despite your privileges to do so.

Well, that is certainly tragic. And it explains so much about the misconceptions and outright distortions of the restored gospel that dominate your minds.

I can say without any reservation whatsoever: I know God. I recognize His word. I am familiar with the unmistakable sensations and the stunning clarity of mind that always accompany His Spirit.

I am sincerely sorry that many of you cannot say the same.

[_RockSlider]

William,

It's nice to see a very good post from you

[_Inconceivable]

I dunno.

Maybe GBH was just asking him where he put his car keys.

[_John Waite]

Joseph Smith taught those in authority should never stop trying for a personal visit/witness of Christ. Now it is discouraged among the leadership.

What has changed?

I have been following this message board for a while now. Among Mormon-oriented forums, it is probably the most adversarial I have seen. Much more so than the FAIR/MAD board where I have posted occasionally in the past. It remains to be seen whether or not I can tolerate some of the stuff that goes on here.

As for the topic of this thread, you say that a witness of Christ is now "discouraged among the leadership." I am not sure what you are talking about. Please explain.

[_Some Schmo]

I dunno.

Maybe GBH was just asking him where he put his car keys.

LOL

Yep, and the whole time he didn't even realize his key ring was dangling from his earlobe.

[_RockSlider]

As for the topic of this thread, you say that a witness of Christ is now "discouraged among the leadership." I am not sure what you are talking about. Please explain.

Hey John

It was not my statement, but it seems that if the Special witnesses concepts of the apostles have soften, so must my expectations of ever receiving that same.

There was a time when seeking one’s calling and election would have been talked about in general conference. I assume this would be not happen now days. I doubt the church would come right out and discourage it (although I have been accused of seeking a sign from members) , but I is it encouraged?

In my day, it might have been unspoken, but it was surely known (expected) by all members that all Apostles had been administered to personally by Jesus. But then again, I always assumed all members knew Joseph Smith was a polygamist, apparently that is not true in the current day church.

What’s your take? Do you expect that all 15 of the top have seen Christ?