?????Ridiculous Belief????? vs ?????Ridiculous to Believe?????

[_Jason Bourne]

Hence the significant and profound difference between Mormonism and mcism.

Oh you bet. The blighted worls Mormonism creates people who think such stupid things. Your religion is so perfectly immune to such ideas. I see. Your attitude towards Mormonism is really are no different than schmos view that believing In God is a crutch.

[_Hoops]

Oh you bet. The blighted worls Mormonism creates people who think such stupid things. Your religion is so perfectly immune to such ideas. I see. Your attitude towards Mormonism is really are no different than schmos view that believing In God is a crutch.

You got all that from my one line? Wow! I am deep.

[_Some Schmo]

Heh... ok then.

Does it really take that much processing power to understand that whether belief there is a God acts like a crutch or whether belief there is no God acts like a crutch depends on the individual?

Here we go...

How does one use the absence of a belief as a crutch, exactly?

Sure, plenty of religious folk find comfort in the belief of an afterlife and that there is justice beyond what this world can mete out.

Without evidence, no less.

There are also atheists who take comfort in the idea that that this life is all there is, that there is no God who will judge us, and that we have the freedom to live our lives as we choose without having to worry about the constraints of religious dogma.

Maybe there are. What of it?

Do you really think that someone like Stalin or Pol Pot would have been overjoyed and comforted to discover that there is a God?

It's not a proper criticism of atheism unless you mention Stalin or Pol Pot, is it? I wonder why Hitler got the day off.

Of course, you don’t have to be a mass murder to have a preference for there not being a God. Would you prefer the God of Christianity or Islam to actually exist? Or are you sufficiently comfortable with you current life and worldview that it would be too costly and painful to reorient yourself?

I would love a loving god to exist. Are you kidding me? That would be extremely comforting.

I don't have anything to fear from such a god. I obey the law and try not to hurt other people, because that's the mature thing to do, not because I fear the wrath of Santa making a list to see who's naughty and who's nice.

And here's a note for ya: I believed there was a god my whole life until about six years ago. Clearly, I am comfortable changing my world view based on the evidence. How about you?

“In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”

You got me. I do fear religion. Big things, like 9/11 or the Inquisition, along with little things, like seeing the silver lining in world's destruction as a sign of the rapture or end times, or even the simple mistreatment of others because they don't believe your personal set of myths make me justified in fearing religion. I was critical of religion decades before I was critical of god belief. I wouldn't be as vocal about it if religion didn't scare the crap out of me.

I can respect an honest and thoughtful atheist who is willing to think through the implications of what they believe and are capable of some degree of self-reflection. I have less respect for the flippant atheism that seems to be increasingly common nowadays or the sort of atheist who is so insecure in their own worldview that they need to continually tell themselves how weak, stupid, and intellectually dishonest religious believers are.

So, it's insecurity on the part of atheists to continually tell themselves "how weak, stupid, and intellectually dishonest religious believers are" but it shows tremendous self-confidence on the part of theists to explain that away as insecurity. Is that it?

Way to go, man. You're soooo superior.

[_Jason Bourne]

You got all that from my one line? Wow! I am deep.

That and other such comments you make along the way.

[_Hoops]

That and other such comments you make along the way.

But I never wrote in this thread that there were problems. I only said this is a difference.

[_Jason Bourne]

But I never wrote in this thread that there were problems. I only said this is a difference.

If I got you wrong feel free to clarify.

[_Hoops]

But I never wrote in this thread that there were problems. I only said this is a difference.

If I got you wrong feel free to clarify.

I just did. You just want to have a chip on your shoulder. So be my guest, be offended all you want.

[_Mad Viking]

I acknowledge a difference between ridiculous beliefs and reasons to believe ridiculous things.

I have a friend who thinks his god belief got him off drugs and crime when he was younger, and feels it keeps him clean and law-abiding. Many times, I’ve heard people say things like, “what prevents an atheist from raping and killing with abandon?” To those people, I say, “If believing is all that’s keeping you moral, keep doing it.”

It seems to me many people use belief as a crutch. Crutches have a use. One would hope that eventually, your sprained ankle will heal and you won’t need the crutch any more, but if it hurts too much to walk without support, I suppose I understand using it to an extent.

I guess I have an issue with thinking the crutch is always necessary, and deciding never to walk on your own two feet. But hey, it doesn’t matter if your ankles are in perfect health; if you think you’re broken, better to have a crutch than to fall over.

In the end, I’m mostly critical of feeling like everyone should have a crutch, and I’m especially critical of beating others over the head with your crutch.

Does it really take that much processing power to understand that whether belief there is a God acts like a crutch or whether belief there is no God acts like a crutch depends on the individual? Sure, plenty of religious folk find comfort in the belief of an afterlife and that there is justice beyond what this world can mete out. There are also atheists who take comfort in the idea that that this life is all there is, that there is no God who will judge us, and that we have the freedom to live our lives as we choose without having to worry about the constraints of religious dogma. Do you really think that someone like Stalin or Pol Pot would have been overjoyed and comforted to discover that there is a God? Of course, you don’t have to be a mass murder to have a preference for there not being a God. Would you prefer the God of Christianity or Islam to actually exist? Or are you sufficiently comfortable with you current life and worldview that it would be too costly and painful to reorient yourself? The philosopher and atheist Thomas Nagel put it this way (emphasis added):

“In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”

Or take the famous convert from atheism to Christianity C.S. Lewis who was not initially pleased when he came to the conclusion that there was indeed a God:

“You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen [Oxford], night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.”

I can respect an honest and thoughtful atheist who is willing to think through the implications of what they believe and are capable of some degree of self-reflection. I have less respect for the flippant atheism that seems to be increasingly common nowadays or the sort of atheist who is so insecure in their own worldview that they need to continually tell themselves how weak, stupid, and intellectually dishonest religious believers are.

What is "flippant atheism"? Are there "flippant believers" also? Do you have as much disrespect for the latter as your do the former?

[_Some Schmo]

What is "flippant atheism"?

It's the atheism of dolphins.

Are there "flippant believers" also?

Hell no (at least, I doubt it). Dolphins are way too smart for that.

Do you have as much disrespect for the latter as your do the former?

Yeah, he strikes me as an indiscriminant tuna eater.

[_Hughes]

I guess I have an issue with thinking the crutch is always necessary, and deciding never to walk on your own two feet. But hey, it doesn’t matter if your ankles are in perfect health; if you think you’re broken, better to have a crutch than to fall over.

This is a classic case of, "my crutch is better than your crutch..."

My response is... oh really? Mine is the infinite creator of all that exists. Yours?