Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

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_consiglieri
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _consiglieri »

quaker wrote:Just out of curiosity, how do you look at mythology? What definition or understanding do you have?


What I suggest is not simply that we look for places in Greek mythology that echo stories in the standard works and thinking of those stories alone as scripture. What I propose is more radical; that we consider as prophets Homer and Hesiod; Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides; and view their writings as scripture.

Their stories speak to the human experience in profound ways. Doing good is often repayed with evil. The Gods are capricious and often contradictory. As Stephen King put it, “God is cruel. Sometimes he lets you live.”

A number of things coalesced to lead me to this idea, not the least of which was reading Edith Hamilton’s book, “Mythology.” At the same time, I was thinking hard about Nephi’s slaying of Laban, and how this could be viewed as sewing the seed at the inception of the Book of Mormon that led to the destruction of the Nephites at the end. That just doesn’t make sense from a Judeo-Christian point of view. But it fits beautifully within the ambit of Greek mythology.

Then I considered how strange it is that Nephi should be cursed by God with a vision of the destruction of his people. Granted this has probably never been called a “curse” by a Mormon before, but what else would you call it? It is said the Cyclops was the most miserable of all creatures because he had been given the gift of seeing with his one eye the day of his death. What, then, can we say of Nephi who saw not his own death, but the death of all his descendants? How would this make Nephi feel, who had sacrificed everything in being obedient to God, leaving his homeland and voluntarily exiling himself to a distant land? What is the purpose of all his sacrifice if his descendants will all be destroyed?

Nephi can be viewed as a hero who follows God’s command in killing Laban, and for his trouble is cursed with a vision of the destruction of his descendants, a destruction brought about by his killing of Laban. Once again, this makes no sense from a traditional point of view. But Nephi’s story makes him fit like a glove within the Greek idea of a hero, such as Theseus or Hercules.

I had long heard of the twelve (there’s that number again) labors of Hercules, but it was only last night I discovered Hercules voluntarily submitted himself to these labors in an attempt to expiate his sin of killing his wife and three sons during a fit of madness—a madness sent on him by one of the Gods. (I believe it was Hera who had it out for Hercules because he was one of a myriad of children sired by her husband, Zeus, with a mortal woman. And is it just coincidence that Greek mythology is rife with such demi-gods, sired by a God and a mortal woman?)

As it turns out, Hera had it out for Hercules since he was a baby, sending two huge serpents to kill him in his cradle. His mother heard a noise in the nursery and went running in to find Hercules giggling and cooing, holding a strangled serpent in each hand. Hercules has power not only to crush the serpent’s head, but to strangle them in his cradle.

Though a rank amateur in Greek mythology, I find my study of it to open my eyes to connections in the Book of Mormon I would never have considered otherwise.

There is also the famous rash vow in Greek mythology—whenever a God swears the unbreakable vow by the River Styx, you know something bad is going to happen; like when Apollo is delighted to find his (illegitimate) son, Phaeton, has climbed to Apollo’s glorious residence and in his joy, swore he would give Phaeton whatever he wanted. Phaeton wanted to drive Apollo’s chariot of fire across the sky. Apollo knew Phaeton could not handle the horses, as Apollo himself was the only one who could do so and even then just barely, but try as he might, Apollo could not dissuade Phaeton from his wish. And so Phaeton drove the chariot, the horses went out of control, set fire to the world, were on the verge of destroying everything, and ultimately he had to be killed by an arrow from Zeus.

But this idea is not so foreign to the Old Testament, where we find Jepthah, judge of Israel, make a rash vow to God that if he wins a military engagement, Jepthah will sacrifice to God the first thing he sees coming out of his home upon his return—and that something ends up being his daughter. But Jepthah has sworn and must fulfill, and sacrifices his own daughter to God. This story makes Christians squeamish. The New Testament has pretty much wiped out this kind of story from its pages. But the Greeks would understand it completely.


We often hear Mormons pining for the sealed two-thirds of the Book of Mormon, or yearning for the scriptures of the lost ten tribes; only to be met with the standard response that once we learn and live by what we have will the rest be revealed. Well, what if a large portion of additional scripture has already been revealed in Greek mythology and lies in libraries, largely as unread as the standard works. Might such Greek scripture be considered both old and new? Old in that they have existed for thousands of years and new in that they are just now being recognized for what they have been all along—the scripture God revealed to the Greeks.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_zeezrom
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _zeezrom »

consiglieri wrote:What I propose is more radical; that we consider as prophets Homer and Hesiod; Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides; and view their writings as scripture.

OMG!
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_consiglieri
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _consiglieri »

zeezrom wrote:
Something I find extremely fascinating right now is the mode of communication between Athena and the mortal as recorded in the early books of the Odyssey. Of special note is how She comes in the disguise of a mortal friend.


I'm glad you brought this up, because it reminds me that this was the way things were in the Old Testament, as well.

There is a repeated haziness between men and Gods. The same story is sometimes told in different ways, and sometimes the messengers are men, sometimes angels and sometimes God.

Here I think of the three "men" who come to meet Abraham and tell him that he will have a son. But are they men or angels or Gods? Or the men who visited Lot and told him to get out of town?

Jacob wrestled with an angel, or was it God? (The same brief story identifies Jacob's visitor as both, but it is clear whoever it was was in the form of a man.)

And here we have Jacob as the great wrestler who can beat an angel (or even God!?), which reminded Joseph Smith of himself, and which would remind the Greeks of Hercules.


For some reason, I am also reminded of the 1970's mini-series, Jesus of Nazareth, which depicts the life of Christ. When they get to the temptation in the wilderness, who should appear in the cave with Jesus as the devil but Donald Pleasance? I thought that was brilliant. Once again we have the idea of a supernatural entity being presented as an ordinary, and even meek and retiring, human being. And it resonated with me better than any amount of special effects. Why should it resonate so with me?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _consiglieri »

zeezrom wrote:
consiglieri wrote:What I propose is more radical; that we consider as prophets Homer and Hesiod; Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides; and view their writings as scripture.

OMG!


If I am to be honest with myself, can I really say their words are a step down from those of President Monson?

Or that the stories from The Illiad or The Odyssey are inferior to those told in General Conference?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Blixa
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _Blixa »

consiglieri wrote:Then I considered how strange it is that Nephi should be cursed by God with a vision of the destruction of his people. Granted this has probably never been called a “curse” by a Mormon before, but what else would you call it? It is said the Cyclops was the most miserable of all creatures because he had been given the gift of seeing with his one eye the day of his death. What, then, can we say of Nephi who saw not his own death, but the death of all his descendants? How would this make Nephi feel, who had sacrificed everything in being obedient to God, leaving his homeland and voluntarily exiling himself to a distant land? What is the purpose of all his sacrifice if his descendants will all be destroyed?

Nephi can be viewed as a hero who follows God’s command in killing Laban, and for his trouble is cursed with a vision of the destruction of his descendants, a destruction brought about by his killing of Laban. Once again, this makes no sense from a traditional point of view. But Nephi’s story makes him fit like a glove within the Greek idea of a hero, such as Theseus or Hercules.

--Consiglieri


This interpretation of Nephi's vision interests me. It reminds me of another summary of the bloody plot line of the Book of Mormon that I'd like to run past you. Unfortunately, I need to quote from a book I don't have access to at the moment, so it will have to wait.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_consiglieri
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _consiglieri »

moksha wrote:Consiglieri, do you think there might be a connection between this recorded work of the Ten Tribes and Minoan and Etruscan artwork?


I don't know enough about these subjects to venture even a guess, but isn't their an example of the Etruscans writing on gold plates bound together with hoops, discovered shortly after WWII and only coming to public knowledge in the past ten years?

Here is an article about them:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=5&id=357

And more Etruscan gold plates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgi_Tablets



All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _consiglieri »

Blixa wrote:This interpretation of Nephi's vision interests me. It reminds me of another summary of the bloody plot line of the Book of Mormon that I'd like to run past you. Unfortunately, I need to quote from a book I don't have access to at the moment, so it will have to wait.


I am finding it a mind-expanding experience looking at the Book of Mormon this way. Not only do we have Nephi's plot-line, we also have a God who will not raise a finger to prevent women and children from being immolated in front of Alma and Amulek, but immediately thereafter has no trouble causing an earthquake so Alma and Amulek can get out of jail free, killing their enemies in the process.

I think Christians tend to elide past such difficult stories (how many have thought of Nephi's vision as a curse?). Even when they do notice the problems, Christians tend to want to recast the story in a way that makes them feel better--such as the idea that Jepthah did not really sacrifice his daughter.

While these types of stories are problematic from a Christian perspective, the Greeks took them in stride because their life experience and wisdom (and inspiration?) told them that was how Gods dealt with humankind. Gods were to be feared and placated, but most importantly to be avoided if at all possible.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Consig,

(I hope you don't mind that I call you Consig. I suck at speling and I either have to scroll down to look how your name is spelled, every time, or get it wrong. Think of it as a term of endearment I suppose.)

I am enjoying this discussion.

As I read the similarities you are describing between the Book of Mormon and ancient mythology I can't help wondering if you might as well be reading any other book that has similar themes, fiction or otherwise. I know that discovering similarities can be exciting and help you understand better the text you are studying. Is the point you are making that these similarities help in understanding themes in the Book of Mormon, an important point to be sure, or are they an indication of it's value as scripture or even some sort of proof that they were divinely received by Joseph Smith? Maybe all of the above?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_consiglieri
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _consiglieri »

Fence Sitter wrote:Is the point you are making that these similarities help in understanding themes in the Book of Mormon, an important point to be sure, or are they an indication of it's value as scripture or even some sort of proof that they were divinely received by Joseph Smith? Maybe all of the above?


This is obviously still a work in progress in my mind, but I think the primary point for right now is that the Book of Mormon uses liberal language in assuring not only that God reveals his word to all nations (as much as they will receive), but also that the "prophets" of each nation will write their scripture and the Book of Mormon promises the scriptures of all these nations will come together in the last days.

As I study the Greek stories in conjunction with the standard works, I see not only points of contact between the two, but more importantly, that the Greek stories amplify and make more sense out of many stories and themes in the standard works; stories that make little to no sense from a strictly Judeo-Christian perspective.

Another story I like is the preparation of Theseus to join his father in Athens when Theseus comes of age. His father placed in a cavity a sword and sandals and over them a large stone. When Theseus can remove the stone and obtain the sword and sandals, he will be prepared to go to his father in Athens for further training.

I can't help but see in this story Joseph Smith's four years of preparation to remove the stone covering the gold plates (and Laban's sword) to be ready to enter his role as prophet.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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Re: Scriptures of Ten Tribes Found in Barn Loft Saturday

Post by _Sethbag »

I think what you guys are seeing is chaotic attractors in the way human beings think. The LDS mythology and greek mythology end up crossing paths intellectually not because they are directly related to each other (not that they aren't, but I don't think the point has been demonstrated), but because they both arise from the same tendency of the human mind, and as such would be related similarly to all other such mythological tendencies in other human cultures as well.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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