Work on J Smith film influenced Richard Dutcher's exit

[_Fence Sitter]

I was an ex-mormon. The reason I left Mormonism was because I didn't believe in God and had no evidence of God. There is no point to believing in Joseph Smith, magic gold books, or anything else for that matter if that is your position. I suspect that is true here as well. After all, if this man knew there was a God and had spoke with him, who cares what Joseph Smith did or did not do.

Which is one of the main reasons the testimony of the 11 witnesses is so troublesome. If these people really believed God had appeared to Joseph Smith, if they really saw an angel with the gold plates, one would expect that at least some of them would have remained in the Church. Cue the ridiculous "oh but none of them ever denied their witness" canard, when by their own actions that is exactly what they did.

[_krose]

I don't know what confuses why me (I'll let him speak for himself). I just marvel at Mormons that do things like this and don't know if there is a God, haven't ever bothered speaking with God, and then state they found some disturbing fact about Joseph Smith or some other part of Mormon history (or books) that caused them to lose faith.

I was an ex-mormon. The reason I left Mormonism was because I didn't believe in God and had no evidence of God. There is no point to believing in Joseph Smith, magic gold books, or anything else for that matter if that is your position. I suspect that is true here as well. After all, if this man knew there was a God and had spoke with him, who cares what Joseph Smith did or did not do.

You keep saying things like this, as if it's just that simple. In my own case, which we have discussed before, apparently all I had to do is get Elohim to speak to me or appear to me. And I guess all I had to do to get that to happen was to ask.

Yet in reality, all those years spent following all the rules obsessively, all those days spent fasting, all those hours spent praying for a confirmation, were apparently not enough.

So you say you have had an encounter of some kind. That's nice for you, but nothing like that ever happened for someone like me, even after years of faithfulness and a single-minded dedication to the effort of getting a solid confirmation. All I can say for a being who would speak to a lucky few people, and ignore most others who earnestly seek him (if he did actually exist), is that he would have to be a gigantic a-hole who is not worthy of basic respect, let alone adulation.

[_krose]

Oh, and Tobin, to a kid who grew up being told those stories, gold books and angels are not strange at all, just as a four-armed goddess and an elephant god are not strange to a kid in Mumbai. At that time I also honestly believed in a jolly fat man who could magically visit millions of homes in one night.

It's only upon growing up and applying reason and logic to magical childhood beliefs when they tend to fall apart.

[_Tobin]

You keep saying things like this, as if it's just that simple. In my own case, which we have discussed before, apparently all I had to do is get Elohim to speak to me or appear to me. And I guess all I had to do to get that to happen was to ask.

Yet in reality, all those years spent following all the rules obsessively, all those days spent fasting, all those hours spent praying for a confirmation, were apparently not enough.

So you say you have had an encounter of some kind. That's nice for you, but nothing like that ever happened for someone like me, even after years of faithfulness and a single-minded dedication to the effort of getting a solid confirmation. All I can say for a being who would speak to a lucky few people, and ignore most others who earnestly seek him (if he did actually exist), is that he would have to be a gigantic a-hole who is not worthy of basic respect, let alone adulation.

krose, you are under the impression that what you try to do or be matters. It doesn't. It is only a matter of who and what you are. Paul was persecuting the saints and the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Have you ever wondered why God would appear to him and not appear to you? It was because of who and what Paul was and was willing to do. Let me give you another example (this is further east), Gautama famously sat under the Bodhi tree, and vowed he would never arise until he had found the truth. He didn't try it for a while and if that didn't work, he'd try the next thing. Now, you might view these stories as myths, but there is a lesson here. It isn't a matter of what you try to do that makes the difference, it is a matter of who and what you are and choose to do that makes the difference.

[_krose]

Have you ever wondered why God would appear to him and not appear to you?

Of course not. I would never have been so presumptuous as to try to place myself on the same level as the greatest apostle of Christianity, the very creator of the Christ mythology.

What I used to wonder, as a good Mormon boy, was what was wrong with me - why he would communicate with so many others in the church and yet leave me in the dark.

What you appear to be saying is that the Mormon/Christian/Hebrew god, despite all the claims to the contrary, and the promises to give to all who ask in good faith, is a respecter of persons who plays favorites. That he will communicate with special people, while being content to let others remain in the dark, ignored. I am happy not to believe that such an enormous jerk exists.

[Guest]

Have you ever wondered why God would appear to him and not appear to you?

Of course not. I would never have been so presumptuous as to try to place myself on the same level as the greatest apostle of Christianity, the very creator of the Christ mythology.
What I used to wonder, as a good Mormon boy, was what was wrong with me - why he would communicate with so many others in the church and yet leave me in the dark.
What you appear to be saying is that the Mormon/Christian/Hebrew god, despite all the claims to the contrary, and the promises to give to all who ask in good faith, is a respecter of persons who plays favorites. That he will communicate with special people, while being content to let others remain in the dark, ignored. I am happy not to believe that such an enormous jerk exists.

Clearly you have no interest in honestly discussing this since neither of my examples illustrate that your status in this life ("Mormon/Christian/Hebrew god...is a respecter of persons who plays favorites.") has anything to do with it nor do my statements connotate such an arrangement. You are welcome to distort and pervert other's views, but I do not need to put up with it. I wish you luck, but as long as you actively misunderstand things - you will remain ignorant of a great deal. Remember, it is a matter of what you are that is important. You may be able to fool others, and even yourself - but you can not fool the Lord.

[_just me]

Have you ever wondered why God would appear to him and not appear to you?

Of course not. I would never have been so presumptuous as to try to place myself on the same level as the greatest apostle of Christianity, the very creator of the Christ mythology.

What I used to wonder, as a good Mormon boy, was what was wrong with me - why he would communicate with so many others in the church and yet leave me in the dark.

What you appear to be saying is that the Mormon/Christian/Hebrew god, despite all the claims to the contrary, and the promises to give to all who ask in good faith, is a respecter of persons who plays favorites. That he will communicate with special people, while being content to let others remain in the dark, ignored. I am happy not to believe that such an enormous jerk exists.

Actually, I think what Tobin is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that you did not try hard enough. We all know that no matter what it is all your fault. So, even though you were keeping the commandments and asking and pleading and fasting...well, clearly you stopped too soon.

[_Tobin]

Actually, I think what Tobin is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that you did not try hard enough. We all know that no matter what it is all your fault. So, even though you were keeping the commandments and asking and pleading and fasting...well, clearly you stopped too soon.

It is not a matter of trying just me. It is matter of doing or not doing. It is what you choose to be and what you are that matters at the end of the day.

[_just me]

Actually, I think what Tobin is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that you did not try hard enough. We all know that no matter what it is all your fault. So, even though you were keeping the commandments and asking and pleading and fasting...well, clearly you stopped too soon.

It is not a matter of trying just me. It is matter of doing or not doing. It is what you choose to be and what you are that matters at the end of the day.

Oh, so he just wasn't/isn't good enough. Gotcha!

[_Tobin]

Oh, so he just wasn't/isn't good enough. Gotcha!

That will be between him and the Lord. Only he can truly answer the Lord when he stands before the Lord. When you compehend things as they are, you understand that seeing God isn't a question of IF, but WHEN.