This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

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_Darth J
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Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _Darth J »

RayAgostini wrote:The problem is that many of his accusers here possess it (hypocrisy) in spades.


No, Ray, the problem is both you and his sycophant fan boys want to make everything about him (as does Peterson himself). It isn't about him. There are few people on this planet that I care about less than Daniel Peterson. It's about bad reasoning, intellectual dishonesty, specious claims, and lying about what people have said for self-serving purposes. Peterson happens to continually put himself in the sweet spot of that Venn diagram, and while he is not alone in that, that is why his name comes up in discussions about these issues.

Now do you intend to respond to the OP at all, or is this going to be another thread of endless pages of derails because you, stemelbow, Simon Belmont under his many names, Tobin, and others can't address the substance of a topic?
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Can we talk about anything besides DCP?
_Darth J
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Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _Darth J »

MrStakhanovite wrote:Can we talk about anything besides DCP?


I hope so.
_RayAgostini

Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _RayAgostini »

Darth J wrote:an attention whore.


I'll be charitable and resist comment.

Darth J wrote:Maybe you can find me another video that misrepresents what Eisenhower said, or makes specious assumptions about the "Battle" of Los Angeles.


Maybe you can do some serious inquiry yourself? I'd say the same to Dan, frankly. The alien presence could, potentially, undermine Mormonism, and all "one true religions", but that shouldn't stop inquiry. The multi-verse theory could finish Mormonism once and for all, but that shouldn't stop inquiry, either.


Darth J wrote:In fact, I think I am obligated to let her know the issues and understand both sides of every single belief system on Earth and every extraordinary claim there is, since we can't ever come to a conclusion about the overwhelming weight of the evidence respecting any given claim.

Maybe when she's old enough to have had an adulterous relationship with him. So, 14?


You very well know that's not going to happen, but for some reason, you still feel that being in the Church for now has positive benefits for your daughter, and I actually respect you for that. You never know - she might one day turn into a defender of the prophet, and a defender of Mormonism. I trust that you'll still love her as much as you do now.
_Darth J
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Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _Darth J »

RayAgostini wrote:
Darth J wrote:an attention whore.


I'll be charitable and resist comment.


No, go ahead, Ray. Start by finding a blog I have set up where I took out-of-context quotes from people who were not talking about me and misrepresented them to make it look as if I was being persecuted.

Your trying to make everything about me does not make me an attention whore.

Darth J wrote:Maybe you can find me another video that misrepresents what Eisenhower said, or makes specious assumptions about the "Battle" of Los Angeles.


Maybe you can do some serious inquiry yourself? I'd say the same to Dan, frankly. The alien presence could, potentially, undermine Mormonism, and all "one true religions", but that shouldn't stop inquiry. The multi-verse theory could finish Mormonism once and for all, but that shouldn't stop inquiry, either.


EVERY THREAD IS NOT ABOUT UFO'S AND DANIEL PETERSON.

Darth J wrote:In fact, I think I am obligated to let her know the issues and understand both sides of every single belief system on Earth and every extraordinary claim there is, since we can't ever come to a conclusion about the overwhelming weight of the evidence respecting any given claim.

Maybe when she's old enough to have had an adulterous relationship with him. So, 14?


You very well know that's not going to happen,


Of course not. He's dead.

but for some reason, you still feel that being in the Church for now has positive benefits for your daughter,


No, I think associating with her friend who happen to be LDS has positive benefits for her.

and I actually respect you for that. You never know - she might one day turn into a defender of the prophet, and a defender of Mormonism. I trust that you'll still love her as much as you do now.


It is indeed possible that I have vastly overestimated her critical thinking abilities.

Anyway.....THE OP, RAY! SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE OP! NOT UFO'S! NOT DAN PETERSON! NOT YOUR CONTRIVED BS MAKING EVERYTHING ABOUT ME! THE OP, RAY!
_RayAgostini

Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _RayAgostini »

Darth J wrote:Anyway.....THE OP, RAY! SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE OP! NOT UFO'S! NOT DAN PETERSON! NOT YOUR CONTRIVED b***s*** MAKING EVERYTHING ABOUT ME! THE OP, RAY!


Hmmm... I thought I did.

Aren't we talking about the FAIR/FARMS/Apologists "hive mind"? I suppose I could be wrong.
_Darth J
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Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _Darth J »

RayAgostini wrote:
Darth J wrote:Anyway.....THE OP, RAY! SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE OP! NOT UFO'S! NOT DAN PETERSON! NOT YOUR CONTRIVED b***s*** MAKING EVERYTHING ABOUT ME! THE OP, RAY!


Hmmm... I thought I did.

Aren't we talking about the FAIR/FARMS/Apologists "hive mind"? I suppose I could be wrong.


No, Ray. Right off the bat, "Well, what about how some people don't like Daniel Peterson?"

Fatuous thinking is not the same thing as a hive mind. You are indeed wrong.

Here, Ray: I'll say everything you have to say right now, so now it's been said and this thread can continue.

1. "Blah blah dogma blah blah blah...." (as if non-belief is a belief).
2. "Blah blah pseudoskpetic blah blah blah....."
3. "Enjoy your 15 minutes of fame."
4. "You hate Mormons."
5. "One day you'll be sorry you said the prolix Bible fan-fic of an adulterous 19th-century con man can be explained by natural means."
_RayAgostini

Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _RayAgostini »

Darth J wrote:
No, Ray. Right off the bat, "Well, what about how some people don't like Daniel Peterson?"

Fatuous thinking is not the same thing as a hive mind. You are indeed wrong.

Here, Ray: I'll say everything you have to say right now, so now it's been said and this thread can continue.

1. "Blah blah dogma blah blah blah...." (as if non-belief is a belief).
2. "Blah blah pseudoskpetic blah blah blah....."
3. "Enjoy your 15 minutes of fame."
4. "You hate Mormons."
5. "One day you'll be sorry you said the prolix Bible fan-fic of an adulterous 19th-century con man can be explained by natural means."


Since you approve of your daughter going to Church, then maybe I've misjudged you. But maybe you've also given wrong impressions here?

You approve of your daughter going to a church "founded by a pedophile"? A "child molester"? That's not really what you think, is it? You can see the goodness in the Church, as anyone else can, and that it has long evolved from its 19th century "dogma", or even 1954, if you count Petersen's talk. You know better, yet you come on here as the Chief Accuser of Mormonism and all things Mormon, hence your 15 minutes of fame.

Other than that, I hope things are well with you and your family, and I sincerely wish you the best in life. And God bless your daughter, and the freedom to choose that you've allowed her.
_Darth J
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Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _Darth J »

Pahoran wrote:
It's like this:

Anti = "opposed to."
Mormon = "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Hence an anti-Mormon is anyone who is opposed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


The fatuousness of Pahoran's reasoning goes beyond the mere etymological fallacy ("anti-Mormon" = "opposed to the LDS Church"). Not only is "anti-Mormon" in reality a term of art in LDS circles, if we want to derive current meaning from the origin of words, then he is insulting Latter-day Saints. "Mormonite" was originally a term of scorn for the early followers of Joseph Smith. Here's an article by Leonard Arrington showing how when newspaper reports of the time talked about "Mormonites," they did not do so favorably:

https://byustudies.BYU.edu/PDFLibrary/1 ... 166fe9.pdf

Or even better, check out how this 1850 booklet starts:

http://archive.org/stream/shorthistoryo ... 1/mode/2up

The Mormonites, or as they now profanely prefer to style themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," originated in the present century ; they were founded by Joseph Smith, an American, of low birth, and no education. Their tenets are so wild and extravagant that nothing but the fact of so many thousands having given credit to them would make them worthy of a serious consideration.


So if you are anti-Mormon, does that mean you are opposed to making fun of Joseph Smith's followers?

Pahoran's mistaken zeal in confusing etymology with meaning is also contrary to the expressed wishes of the LDS Church.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/style-guide

Please avoid the use of "Mormon Church", "LDS Church" or the "Church of the Latter-day Saints".

When referring to Church members, the term "Latter-day Saints" is preferred, though "Mormons" is acceptable.


Note the irony that "Mormon News Room" tells people not to refer to "the Mormon Church." But regardless, here's Pahoran insisting that "Mormon" is equivalent to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," when President New S. Room tells us that we're not supposed to equate those terms.

The name of the Church was supposed to have been revealed by the Lord. That means the Lord wanted the members of his church to be called "Latter-day Saints." So it's kind of curious that Pahoran does not demand that critics of his cherished beliefs be referred to as "anti-Latter-day Saints." (For that matter, it's curious that we don't have an "I'm a Latter-day Saint" advertising campaign, or hear concerts by the "Latter-day Saint Tabernacle Choir.") Why not use the name allegedly revealed by the Lord?

Or if we really want to get into etymology equating to meaning, we could go to the Egyptian origins of "Mormon," which, as Egyptian speaker Joseph Smith explained, means "more good." Since etymology is meaning, what is Pahoran really saying? Well, of course what he is saying is that people who dispute the faith-promoting narrative are "against more good." What does that mean, though? Anti-Mormons are in favor of good, they're just opposed to more of it? Perhaps anti-Mormons want less good, but still some good? These questions are so vexing. If only we had really super smart people like Gary Novak around to explain it all.
_Darth J
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Re: This kind of bad reasoning needs to stop MD&D/FAIR

Post by _Darth J »

In addition to fallacious reasoning, Pahoran is resting on a faulty premise: that the LDS Church owns the word "Mormon." This unstated premise is of course demonstrably false.

Nor am I the only one to recognize Pahoran's (and the Church's) mistaken premise that "Mormon" = "LDS." I have previously quoted that avowed anti-Mormon(!), Richard Bushman, on the matter. Let's see it again:

Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction, Pages 13-14

Varieties of Mormonism

Mormonism now consists of scores of independent factions that have emerged over the years. The church bearing the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, is only the largest entity in a broad movement. A number of separate groups sprang up in the decades after Joseph Smith's death in 1844 when there was a contest to succeed him as president of the church. After Brigham Young led the largest contingent west to the Great Basin in 1847, a substantial number of Mormons who stayed behind formed the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints under Joseph Smith's son. Known since 2001 as the Community of Christ, this branch of Mormonism is headquartered in Independence, Missouri.

In the early twentieth century, another major split took place following the abandonment of plural marriage in 1890. So-called fundamentalist groups held on to polygamy and claimed to continue authentic Mormonism. They believed that the main body of the church had strayed. The fundamentalists are the groups now notorious in the press for their practice of plural marriage in opposition to anti-bigamy laws.

These divergent wings of the Mormon movement exemplify the complex forces operating within Mormonism to this day.
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