Tobin wrote:It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.
I keep hearing this line of reasoning from believers. Even if there were rock solid evidence for Mormonism's claims, the critics still wouldn't believe.
At the same time, we hear that the reason God does not allow rock solid evidence to come forth is because that would take away our agency—that in the face of such evidence we would essentially be forced to believe.
So which is it?
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 29, 2012 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mms wrote:It seems so strange to me—any non-Mormon to have considered the question finds the Book of Mormon to be fiction based, in part, on metallurgy and archeology and horses. How does Elder Holland (allegedly) not see that the embarrassment would more readily be on the part of the believer? I am continually amazed at how completely backwards true believers imagine things.
Your remark about believers' backwards thinking reminded me of this ETB quote:
Ezra Benson wrote:We do not have to prove the Book of Mormon is true. The book is its own proof. All we need to do is read it and declare it! The Book of Mormon is not on trial—the people of the world, including the members of the Church, are on trial as to what they will do with this second witness for Christ.
Tobin wrote:It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.
Not a real worry is it. There will NEVER BE any pre-Columbian horse remains, steel swords, cities name Zarahemla, gold coins, ocean going barges, killing fields with MILLIONS of remains, balls of curious workmanship, or any other Book of Mormon artifacts discovered. IT IS ALL MADE UP B*LLSH*T by Horny Holy Joe so he would be able to live his life having sexual relationships with teenage girls, other men's wives and living off the hard work of his followers.
Ezra Benson wrote:We do not have to prove the Book of Mormon is true. The book is its own proof. All we need to do is read it and declare it! The Book of Mormon is not on trial—the people of the world, including the members of the Church, are on trial as to what they will do with this second witness for Christ.
Here, let's modify it just a little and apply it to other revelations of sacred LDS canon:
We do not have to prove the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 true. The Explanations are its own proof. All we need to do is read them and declare it! The Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are not on trial—the people of the world, including the members of the Church, are on trial as to what they will do with these Egyptian translations.
And what do I do with these Explanations? I toss them in the trash can where they belong. Joe Smith made up the Book of Mormon and the Explanations. Liar.
mms wrote:Hang on, BC, I am crawling around the Book of Mormon, get back to you as soon as I am done.
Holland is such a fool. It's the Book of Mormon that has to crawl around Isaiah. Does he know this? Has he ever discussed this in any kind of detail using the intelligence in his brain while at the same time respecting the intelligence that is in the brains of others?
The Mighty Builder wrote:Not a real worry is it. There will NEVER BE any pre-Columbian horse remains, steel swords, cities name Zarahemla, gold coins, ocean going barges, killing fields with MILLIONS of remains, balls of curious workmanship, or any other Book of Mormon artifacts discovered. IT IS ALL MADE UP B*LLSH*T by Horny Holy Joe so he would be able to live his life having sexual relationships with teenage girls, other men's wives and living off the hard work of his followers.
You're right on every count. Joe Smith made everything up with a little help from his friends. Evidence of the Book of Mormon will never come to light any more than Egyptologists will ever give in and confess that Joe's Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 have been translated correctly.
Furthermore, Jesus is never coming back. There will be no second coming. It's myth based on misplaced faith for people who need a Jesus to love them and save them because they are insecure and fail to realize that everyone is their own personal savior. Christians are a weak people. They depend on Jesus rather themselves.
Tobin wrote:It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.
I keep hearing this line of reasoning from believers. Even if there were rock solid evidence for Mormonism's claims, the critics still wouldn't believe.
At the same time, we hear that the reason God does not allow rock solid evidence to come forth is because that would take away our agency—that in the face of such evidence we would essentially be forced to believe.
So which is it?
That depends on what rock solid evidence you demand. The point of the Book of Mormon is to gain rock solid evidence of God and use that as the basis of your faith. If a man of faith pursued this to its logical conclusion, he would be shown all things by the Lord much as the prophets of old were. So it is not an either-or type of thing, but an exercise in faith in God.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.
I think the whole idea that a loving Father in Heaven required his Son to suffer brutality and death in order to forgive his other children of every little sin is more insane than believing the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are translated correctly. The whole thing is just wrong. A loving God can forgive just because he wants to forgive because he loves those who turn to him. No need to make animal or human sacrifices. Love itself is above all things. No need to make a man bleed at every pore and nail him to a cross in order to make love and forgiveness possible. Welcome to the Dark Ages -- Dark religion still alive today!
Do you have children? What loving parent would take their most behaved child and toss them to a mob to be beaten, molested, and tortured to death in order to pay for the sins of the bad children in the family? The whole concept of blood atonement and Jesus' sacrifice is SICK! Being a Christian is like believing in ancient human sacrifice and accepting the Law of Moses was once valid and required for salvation pinned upon a final human sacrifice -- Jesus hanging on a cross so that Father can show love and forgiveness to everyone else. Total BS! It's all manmade religion.
The Mighty Builder wrote: Not a real worry is it. There will NEVER BE any pre-Columbian horse remains, steel swords, cities name Zarahemla, gold coins, ocean going barges, killing fields with MILLIONS of remains, balls of curious workmanship, or any other Book of Mormon artifacts discovered. IT IS ALL MADE UP B*LLSH*T by Horny Holy Joe so he would be able to live his life having sexual relationships with teenage girls, other men's wives and living off the hard work of his followers.
Actually, I think the order was different: in the beginning, Joseph just didn't want to work at physical labor (hence, the rock gazing, treasure hunting, etc)... it wasn't until the end that he got into the sexual relationships with his followers.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Tobin wrote:That depends on what rock solid evidence you demand. The point of the Book of Mormon is to gain rock solid evidence of God and use that as the basis of your faith. If a man of faith pursued this to its logical conclusion, he would be shown all things by the Lord much as the prophets of old were. So it is not an either-or type of thing, but an exercise in faith in God.
I think you are overstating what faith is all about. Faith is NOT rock solid evidence of anything. Faith is believing in something that is not seen -- to believe in something that is not proven. The Book of Mormon cannot prove the existence of God. Do you think those thoughts in your head and warm feelings prove there is a God? That's not proof, that's just thinking and feeling. It proves nothing.
The prophets of old were liars. They made claims and made up stories much like Joe Smith's Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 and his Book of Mormon. That's about how much credit I give your prophets, dead and alive. They are all a bunch of religious nuts.
So don't tell me about faith. Offer proof, or get lost.