Question for Lulu

[_CaliforniaKid]

I tend to think Joseph had a unique kind of genius, and Alvin could never have been the lead player. Granted, we don't know that much about Alvin. Alvin seems to have been the de facto head of the family, but Lucy's biography portrays him as second fiddle to Joseph on the plates project, even while he was alive. He'd have been Joseph's #2, I suspect.

[_Equality]

One of the projects Don Bradley is working on is the way that Joseph's scriptures frequently addressed the concerns of their immediate "dictation" audience, whether that was the Smith family, Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, or whoever.

This sounds very interesting. I think Don may be on to something.

[_Equality]

Lucy, for her part, eventually expected to display the plates for 25 cents per viewing.

I don't remember ever reading that. I knew about the Book of Abraham display but I don't think I knew she wanted to do that with the gold plates. Do you have a source for this? Thanks.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Do you have a source for this? Thanks.

EMD 2:32

[Guest]

Dan Vogel and, to a lesser degree, Richard Bushman have argued that Joseph Smith wanted to unite his family religiously and rescue them from their crushing poverty.

Vogel, who I don't think gets enough credit, has Lucy as way too passive and Joseph Smith, Jr. doing all the uniting work.

Smith's scriptures, for instance, vacillate between Lucy's evangelicalism and Joseph Sr.'s universalism.

Vogel overstates Lucy's evangelicalism. Here's Lucy's quote from the Preliminary Manuscript about her near death illness in Randolph, VT c 1802:

"and <I> covenanted with God if he would let me live I would endeavor to get that religion that would enable me to serve him right whether it was in the Bible or where ever it might be found even if it was to be obtained from heaven by prayer and Faith[.]" Lucy's Book, 277-8.

Note that

"whether it was in the Bible or where ever it might be found even if it was to be obtained from heaven by prayer and Faith"

was deleted from the 1853 publication.

That is not an evangelical statement. Evangelicals would not have gone beyond the Bible. Vogel misses it and might not have had access to the Prelimary Manuscript when he first wrote. But he never corrects himself after it became widely available and persists in his overstated "Lucy evangelical" view in his later writings.

The idea of right religion outside of the Bible and directly from heaven could be said to be the basis for Mormonism. Writing in the winter of 1844-45, Lucy claims it for herself dating it back to 1802 some 3 years before Joseph Smith, Jr. was even born. Lucy knew what she was talking about, herself, and knew what she was saying, it was her idea. Listen to her.

If you have something from another Lucy Smith family member that so neatly encapsulates Mormonism, and attributed to such an early date, please share.

Lucy was not a passive woman. Within the confines of 19th century gender norms, she did exactly what she had to do to get the religion she wanted.

But instead of looking at what a woman said about herself, we are going to talk about Alvin? The programing runs deep.

[_Cicero]

Women are frequently and falsely seen as being passive. Can you change that to an active statement about Lucy?

Unfortunately I can't based on the sources I have read. Emma was vocal in her opposition to Brigham Young (she favored William Marks, but he didn't want to lead the church and supported Rigdon instead). I haven't seen any contemporary sources that support any notion of active opposition by Lucy, but I would be more than happy to be made aware of such sources.

[_lulu]

Women are frequently and falsely seen as being passive. Can you change that to an active statement about Lucy?

Unfortunately I can't based on the sources I have read. Emma was vocal in her opposition to Brigham Young (she favored William Marks, but he didn't want to lead the church and supported Rigdon instead). I haven't seen any contemporary sources that support any notion of active opposition by Lucy, but I would be more than happy to be made aware of such sources.

Ahh, Emma, but then the UT Mormons demonize her for it. Look at Emma through non-UT Mormon eyes. What was she trying to do? What kind of church did she want? Did she get it? How? What gender issues were in play?

Lucy wrote a whole "revisionist" history that did not fit completely with her son's serialized version in the Times and Seasons (now part of History of the Church.)

I'd call that pretty active.

What was she trying to do?

Read the Memoir to learn about Lucy, not about Joseph.

[_Cicero]

I'd call that pretty active.

Brigham Young certainly agreed with you. Dammit all, there I go referring to a man's point of view again. Sorry about that.

In all seriousness, I find Emma Smith to be the most interesting person in all of Mormon history.

[_lulu]

In all seriousness, I find Emma Smith to be the most interesting person in all of Mormon history.

Can't wait for a pro-sports team owner to donate millions for the Emma Hale Smith Papers Project.

And thanks for your critique, I could use a lot of it.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Lucy was certainly a Seeker, as Vogel himself has documented in detail. But then, so was Joseph Sr. Their Seekerisms were of different varieties, though. Seeker or no, Lucy joined the Presbyterian church in response to the minister's sermon claiming that Alvin had been damned to hell. She was apparently concerned that he might be right, and her other children might suffer the same fate. This is a Seekerism of a pretty evangelical bent. Joseph Sr., meanwhile, was a "Restorationer," meaning he believed in post-mortem salvation-- a theme amply utilized by Joseph Jr.

Don't get me wrong, lulu. Joseph Jr. was certainly influenced by both his parents. His own early Methodist and Baptist leanings are considerably more in line with his mom's beliefs than his dad's. (It was after attending a Methodist meeting with Lucy that Joseph Sr. nearly got creamed by Asael's copy of The Age of Reason.) But I don't see much evidence of intent on Lucy's part "to get the religion she wanted" through the Book of Mormon. The prediction that there would be a prophet in the family came from the Smith side of the family, not from the Macks.

In your defense, though, I agree that the gender norms of the day would tend to cause any contributions by Lucy to be overlooked.

But instead of looking at what a woman said about herself, we are going to talk about Alvin? The programing runs deep.

I'm not sure what this means. What are you suggesting Lucy said about herself? I don't see her claiming to be a co-conspirator.