Dialogue between TBMs and Critics

[_Yoda]

There was no outrage, no expressions of concern here, except to call me a liar.

CFR. I seem to recall that there certainly WAS outrage on the part of the Moderators, me, in particular. As a matter of fact, I gained a lot of flack for suspending Eric over that whole mess.

[_Equality]

Dear Brother Yahoo Bot,

Based on allegations of misbehavior on an Anti-Mormon message board that have been brought to our attention by a woman identifying herself as "Palsgraf," your calling as a guard for the Long Island Railroad company is hereby revoked.

XOXO,

President Cardozo

Thanks for the laugh. And the shudder down the spine (Law School PTSD).

[_sock puppet]

I think Gordon's an ass and he did it deliberately.

Maybe he did it deliberately. I don't know all the facts, but Sethbag made a good point in that it could have been done by Gordon for altruistic given the religious belief construct of Mormonism.

But truth be told, Gordon should be hauled in for posting things that are not directly in the Cult curriculum. If you haven't seen anything about the head in the hat on Mormon.org in the last decade - you sure better not see it on FAIR, otherwise, that's not faith promoting and could cause a member to question their faith. Better to take the Cult's position and deny they ever taught it, or that it was a little fleck of history, etc, etc.

If going beyond LDS.org and LDS printed materials is not the problem, but the "tone" is, the LDS Church is headed into some treacherous, uncharted waters with such inquisitions. If going beyond the materials is sufficient, then you are right, FAIR's functionaries should stand the same discipline that MormonThink's Twede is/has.

[_bcspace]

I've had posters contact my stake president to get me released from my church calling. (It worked. I don't have one any more.)

When will someone do that for me? Oh, that's right......

[_Bob Loblaw]

When will someone do that for me? Oh, that's right......

Because you're one of those anonymous cowards.

[_Equality]

If you haven't seen anything about the head in the hat on Mormon.org in the last decade - you sure better not see it on FAIR, otherwise, that's not faith promoting and could cause a member to question their faith.

It is an open question whether FAIR or MormonThink has caused more damage to Mormon testimonies. And it is by no means obvious that the answer is the latter rather than the former. Of course, Gordon should not be worried about the effect of MormonThink on Mormon testimonies because, as bcspace has pointed out, there is nothing there that would negatively affect a true Mormon testimony.

[_Bob Loblaw]

It is an open question whether FAIR or MormonThink has caused more damage to Mormon testimonies. And it is by no means obvious that the answer is the latter rather than the former. Of course, Gordon should not be worried about the effect of MormonThink on Mormon testimonies because, as bcspace has pointed out, there is nothing there that would negatively affect a true Mormon testimony.

Here's what happens:

1. Members stumble across some troubling information about the church they were unaware of.

2. They think it has to be an anti-Mormon lie or at best "yellow journalism" as Mr. Space would say.

3. They go to their priesthood leaders, who say, "What? Never heard of that. Just keep praying and reading your scriptures."

4. They go to LDS.org to look for the information and there's nothing there, so the official church site is no help.

5. They go over to FAIR and other apologetic resources and find out two things: the information was correct, and the apologetic "answers" are unbelievably lame (think Sam Katich's ridiculous piece about "loose dynastic" polygamy).

6. They find MormonThink or some other similar resource, who will tell them the truth and even link them to opposing positions.

7. They realize that the only people who are dealing honestly with the evidence are the apostates and critics.

[_3sheets2thewind]

I've had posters contact my stake president to get me released from my church calling. (It worked. I don't have one any more.)

When will someone do that for me? Oh, that's right......

Given that your are the SP it wouldn't do any good to send you a letter about how much you preach against the Brethren, a letter to
Chicago Tribune or Cincinnati.com documenting your direct opposition to the Brethren via you "you can't be a Democrat and be Mormon" unrighteous personal philosophy, would do more harm to the Church, that is the benefit of exsposing you and your unrighteous dominion is far outweighed by the harm that would happen to the Church. And I am not sure Mrs. Smith-Morrey would want to have her life ruined as colateral damage to your personal unrighteous dominion.

So feel free to continue your unrighteous dominion knowing that you abuse your position for the vainity of your pet unrighteous philosophies. And that your pet philosophies put at risk the tax exempt status of at least the Church properties in your stake.

[Guest]

There was no outrage, no expressions of concern here, except to call me a liar.

CFR. I seem to recall that there certainly WAS outrage on the part of the Moderators, me, in particular. As a matter of fact, I gained a lot of flack for suspending Eric over that whole mess.

CFR that you suspended him. [Of course, I didn't ask for that remedy, nor would I have approved such. BUT, I do recall that you suspended me for using red font in my posts.] [And, it didn't do a damn bit of good; he's using this board to harass me for "lunch" in real life. Perhaps he can find happiness without my approval. I approve nobody. I condemn all except those who can beat me in foot race.]

CFR that you expressed outrage. [Of course, I don't care about my CFR or your response, really.]

CFR that you're really a moderator rather than a drum-beater for evil people generally.

[_Sethbag]

I guess to me the question is "is snitching in this context wrong?"

If you're a critic, and believe the church isn't true, then Gordon is acting to circumvent people from obtaining accurate and true facts that should be material to their trust and belief in the LDS church's truth claims. His act therefor appears irksome.

If you're a believer, however, Gordon is acting to protect the flock from the actions of one whose intent is clearly to lead people away from Christ and the Celestial Kingdom. His act is therefor not irksome in the least, but virtuous.

Since the answer to my question depends for the most part on whether you believe the church is true, the real argument here is whether the church is true or not.

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Let's consider the actions of normal US Infantry versus German Wehrmacht soldiers engaged in combat in WWII.

If you're an American infantryman, that German soldier firing his MG42 in your direction is doing a really evil thing. He's trying to kill you! How dare he?

Of course, if you're the German, you're just laying down suppressive fire on that evil American squad who had been moving into position to assault and kill your buddies. Good for you!

Whose actions were ultimately virtuous or not I guess depends on whether the American position in the war was more virtuous than the Germans' was.

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The Critics think they're the Allies to the TBMs' Third Reich.
The TBMs think they're the Allies and the critics are Hitler's Spawn.

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If you've ever played the game America's Army, one interesting thing about the way they implemented that game is that while one side appears to be the terrorists and one side appears to be the US Army, *both* sides in any game see themselves as the Americans and the other guys as the terrorists. And it works.