Men's (Nightmare) Plan of Salvation: A Fable

[_jo1952]

Love this topic.

Here is God today. She is loved by many, including her Suitor from the East.

Idylle - William-Adolphe Bouguereau

Hi Zeezrom,

I feel particularly moved by the above picture. Please don't tell Frank...er...hmmm.....and jo goes looking for Frank.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

It's really too bad that the Bible and especially the Book of Mormon are so sparse on their testament of the leadership, power, and authority held by women. It requires its readers to search high and low for crumbs and minute symbols in dark corners. We might feel good after finding a gem or two like Mary M. and the mentioning of a prophetess.

Why can't we expect more from God's Word? Why can't we hold it responsible for skipping over women? Why not judge it for grave error? Why not reject it entirely for such error?

Hi Zeezrom!

Meh....it was men who decided what would get canonized as God's Word. They were using their own free agency and chose not to follow God's will.

Blessings,

jo

[_Franktalk]

Ok Gaia,

Now tell me why it is that women allow this situation to exist? I may offer a clue. It is Biblical that women desire to please their man. Sadly even if it goes against some other Biblical command. If that is true then what is it that drives men to exclude women? Where does that motivation come from? If it happened twice in the church then this is a second witness of some powerful influence of some sort.

This subject can lead to some very interesting truths.

[_Gaia]

Ok Gaia,

Now tell me why it is that women allow this situation to exist? I may offer a clue. It is Biblical that women desire to please their man. Sadly even if it goes against some other Biblical command. If that is true then what is it that drives men to exclude women? Where does that motivation come from? If it happened twice in the church then this is a second witness of some powerful influence of some sort.

This subject can lead to some very interesting truths.

GAIA:

Hi Franktalk.

Have i given you the impression that i have all the answers? If so, i deeply apologize. I can only share with you my experience, knowledge, and the conclusions i've come to at this point, with (what i certainly hope is) the inspiration of God. Like everyone else, though, I am "in process", and what i believe today may not be what i believe tomorrow.

That said, Apostle Franklin D Richards gave what i think is a very good (and honest) explanation for "what it was that drove men to exclude women" -- and it really wasn't all that esoteric:

By 1878, Mormon misogyny was linked with denials of women’s authority,which resulted in a public comment by Apostle Franklin D Richards:

“Every now and then we hear men speak tauntingly of the sisters and lightly of their public duties, instead of suporting and encouraging them….There are also some who look with jealousy upon the moves of the sisters as though they might come to possess some of the gifts, and are afraid they [LDS women] will get away with some of the blessings of the gospel which only men ought to possess.”
Because of this “envy and jealousy,” Apostle Richards said some LDS men “don’t like to accord to [the sisters] anything that will raise them up and make their talents to shine forth as the daughters of Eve and Sarah.”
(”LDS Women’s Exponent” 7 (1 NOv 1878): 86.)


However, if you have more information or insights which you would like to share on the subject, I would've course be interested to hear them and take them "under consideration" .

Blessing to you ~ Gaia

[_Gaia]

Why can't we expect more from God's Word? Why can't we hold it responsible for skipping over women? Why not judge it for grave error? Why not reject it entirely for such error?

GAIA:

Hi Zeezrom --

Those are good questions. I think everyone must come to them on his/her own, at their own time and their own "pace" so to speak.

Challenging something that one has been taught to trust as the "ultimate word of God" and believed in all one's life, is not something that's done easily or lightly. I remember the original Mormon Feminist (Sonya Johnson) describing her experience (See her first book, "From Housewife to Heretic"): (this will be a dreadful paraphrase, but it's the best i can manage at this late date since i no longer own the book) --

"It's as if my mind held row after row after row of files, and in each file was every misogynist statement, every unfairness, every slight, every sexist comment or incident that i had ever experienced or witnessed... and all of a sudden, what had held them back came flying apart and files crashed over my head, burying me."

If i may indulge in a personal observation here, That's what it was like for me. I had been a "True Believer" in just about every sense; I had forsaken family, friends, everything i ever knew, to join and be a devout member of the Church....And when i finally had my "Great Disillusionment" -- Well, i'm telling you, 40 years or more down the road from that point, it still hurts; I still have nightmares about it. Believe me, i am not being melodramatic when i say that It nearly killed me -- It did kill whole parts of me -- and i would not wish that kind of pain, confusion, grief, horror and anomie on my worst enemy!

So i try to be patient with those who are not ready for that tsunami to come crashing down --- because i Remember.


Blessings ~ Gaia

[_Franktalk]

Gaia,

It seems to me that both men and women in the flesh are given a role to play in this grand drama. It is for men to think they are in control when they are not and it is for women to believe that they are not in control when in fact they have more than they admit. Both of these role playing situations are part of the walk in the flesh and must be overcome so each individual can look past the bondage of the flesh and see them self for what they really are. Only when we reach inside of our self and see who we are can we truly open up to the spiritual walk. If we continue to fool our self we will place a wall between us and God. It is laying out all of our baggage and earthly notions that allows us to see what is acquired and what is truly our soul. It seems to me that you can see the faults of the world and they don't sit to well with you. This is great. But what is next? If you then decide to fix the world you will waste your life. The world will never be fixed. This is a hard lesson we all must experience. A failure that each of us must have and must embrace. Please step back and try and view mankind from Christ's eyes for a moment. He came to the world and offered a path for all to come to Him in love and friendship. His world if we could accept it would be paradise. But the world is not paradise. His free gift is mostly rejected. Yet Christ loves us. He does not love the world. Is this not the lesson that we find in so many different ways?

As for the LDS church. I know that the church is not what it should be. But the world is not what it should be and the church is part of the world. For all its talk about Zion it is not Zion. Just as we are not to embrace the world we are not to embrace any church. But we live in the world and we can be a member in a church without taking the church as part of us. Just as we can live in the world and not be of the world. I hope this means something to you. In my view you could be a member of many churches yet not be of that church. So for me I joined the LDS church about two years ago knowing many of its faults. I do not expect perfection in the world. Within my limited ability to deliver the good message I do what I can. But I know that if I try and fix the unfixable I waste my time. The best I can do as we are all told to do is spread the gospel of truth and to love each other. Along the way I tell people how unimportant it is for them to embrace the doctrines of men. The message is always to embrace each other one soul to another. So our goal is not to wallow in the obvious problems of the world but to seek what is inside each of us. There is something that Christ said that I have embraced. He said that the poor will always be with you. Just what was that message? Was He saying don't help the poor because it will never be fixed? Of course not. He was saying that this world will never be fixed but it is our job to do the things to try and make it better. Christ did not give up and we should not give up knowing we will never on this earth fix anything in mass. But can we soul to soul be an example of light and help someone see that light? Yes we can. So whether you are a member of the RCC or LDS or Buddhist you can help someone along the path so they can see them self and are better able to see the path towards light.

So indeed you have touched upon a great truth. But how we deal with a truth of this world will help or hinder our path to the truth in the Kingdom of God. I am sure you have way more answers to the questions you toss out than you are willing to admit. Just as you are bold with questions I would recommend that you are bold with answers. Knowing you will fall short. I know I fall short but the effort makes perfection in the passing of time.

I greatly appreciate the work you have done in laying out this problem in the church. Your ability to see the truth past the layers of this world is a rare quality. It seems to me that you knew the truth of women's role on this earth before you uncovered the historical facts. In my posts I deal with the many problems of the world and make comments on those problems. Do not take them personal.

[_Gaia]

Gaia,

It seems to me that both men and women in the flesh are given a role to play in this grand drama. It is for men to think they are in control when they are not and it is for women to believe that they are not in control when in fact they have more than they admit. Both of these role playing situations are part of the walk in the flesh and must be overcome so each individual can look past the bondage of the flesh and see them self for what they really are. Only when we reach inside of our self and see who we are can we truly open up to the spiritual walk. ..... The world will never be fixed. This is a hard lesson we all must experience. A failure that each of us must have and must embrace. Please step back and try and view mankind from Christ's eyes for a moment. He came to the world and offered a path for all to come to Him in love and friendship. His world if we could accept it would be paradise. But the world is not paradise. His free gift is mostly rejected. ..... Yet Christ loves us. He does not love the world. .

GAIA TO FRANKTALK:

Thank you so very much for sharing such beautiful, profound and inspiring thoughts!


Blessed Be ~ Gaia

[_jo1952]

Gaia,

It seems to me that both men and women in the flesh are given a role to play in this grand drama. It is for men to think they are in control when they are not and it is for women to believe that they are not in control when in fact they have more than they admit. Both of these role playing situations are part of the walk in the flesh and must be overcome so each individual can look past the bondage of the flesh and see them self for what they really are. Only when we reach inside of our self and see who we are can we truly open up to the spiritual walk. ..... The world will never be fixed. This is a hard lesson we all must experience. A failure that each of us must have and must embrace. Please step back and try and view mankind from Christ's eyes for a moment. He came to the world and offered a path for all to come to Him in love and friendship. His world if we could accept it would be paradise. But the world is not paradise. His free gift is mostly rejected. ..... Yet Christ loves us. He does not love the world. .

GAIA TO FRANKTALK:

Thank you so very much for sharing such beautiful, profound and inspiring thoughts!


Blessed Be ~ Gaia

Hey Gaia,

Just so you know....Frank thinks you and I are going to become fast buddies.

Blessings,

jo

[_zeezrom]

Gaia,

I have enjoyed all you had to say here - as well as jo.

I feel I need to remember to be forgiving of these works of history. That said, I have come to see the works of the Greeks more inspiring than that of the Hebrews. It is just my personal taste, I suppose. Certainly, we could rip apart the works of Homer for being anti-lots-of-things.

Luckily, nobody is asking me to pay them for believing in Athena.

[_Franktalk]

Gaia,

I have enjoyed all you had to say here - as well as jo.

I feel I need to remember to be forgiving of these works of history. That said, I have come to see the works of the Greeks more inspiring than that of the Hebrews. It is just my personal taste, I suppose. Certainly, we could rip apart the works of Homer for being anti-lots-of-things.

Luckily, nobody is asking me to pay them for believing in Athena.

I have heard this many times that payment is somehow required in the LDS church. I will say that my personal experience is much different. I had a company that went under because of the housing bubble. I found myself barely able to relocate to a cheaper area and lower my monthly expenses before the end. The Bishop in my old location did what was necessary to get us able to move. Without the help we would have been on the street. When we finally did move we were broke and the church helped out to get us settled. This took months. So when I hear that people feel strong armed in the church I have this different perspective. When I am able which appears to be soon I will gladly give to the church. For I know from personal experience that the money will go to those in need. Maybe I have gone through this in some planned way. Because I am working on something that if it does what I think then my new company will do very well.

On these boards I am surrounded by people who for many reasons have an axe to grind with the church. I know the church is not perfect and I never expected it to be perfect. I know that the doctrines that are taught would not line up with my personal beliefs. But I can still operate inside that framework and do good for people. Is this not what we are to do? Make the best of any given situation and try and make it better? Who did Jesus sit with? The people who were already on the path or with those in need? Oh Zeezrom you bare your soul in your posts and seek to know what is true. I would suggest to you that you step back and see the cesspool of the world as what it really is. I would suggest that you concentrate on people and not the world. People can become better, the world will not. This is a hard truth that many refuse at face value.