The problem with black folks...

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_subgenius
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _subgenius »

beastie wrote:...(snip)...

by the way, I'm attempting a more serious discussion of this problem on this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=702557#p702557

The purpose of my OP was to demonstrate the inherently flawed attempts of the Republican party to rebrand itself as more appealing to minorities. It's a joke. They can't help but insult and offend even as they attempt to "reach out".

yet the democrats successfully re-branded themselves from being the party of Jim Crow law writers...back then the Democratic party was the party of old white southerners who despised negroes....so exactly how can you argue that such a "re-branding" is unlikely when we have seen it successfully played out in the past half century? Heck, the democrats did not even re-brand, they simply bribed minorities and denied them any opportunity for self-reliance....the republicans will succeed at promoting self-reliance among minorites because it is an inevitable desire among free people.....see also Malcolm X and his opinion about the democratic party
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_Droopy
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _Droopy »

beastie wrote:
How surprising that, once again, Droopy refuses to offer specific examples of his charges. Which one of the assertions are untrue, droopy?



The entire article is a simmering plethora of fatuous lies, distortions, and decontextualized cherry-picked statements plucked for their polemical usefulness, Beastie, and all driven by the unconstrained adolescent moral self-adulation and messianic idealism that has always made the Left so dangerous a threat to civilization itself.

Buckley a white supremacist? OK beastie. Goldwater? Here's your intellectual credibility problem presented on a proverbial silver platter, yet again. Good grief, Buckley kicked the racists, nativists, and conspiracy theorists out of the very early conservative movement and purged it of its dead wood, generating the sophisticated, philosophically rigorous (often criticized as "highbrow") fusionist conservative movement, based in classical liberal political theory and Judeo-Christian social/ethical teaching that came to define the movement.

This kind of supercilious historical revisionism, quite the the equal of anything Lenin or Goebbles ever concocted in their own respective contexts, can be seriously published only in the monocultural world of the American pop media in which the wagons are always circled and the ideology always pure.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Droopy
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _Droopy »

Look, bottom line: the contemporary Democrats are a racialist, collectivist party grounded in tribal balkanization by race, ethnicity, class, and gender who's entire power base in American politics, where blacks are concerned, is invested in institutional racism supported and defended by the force of law. Affirmative Action, racial set-asides, college admissions, the untouchable status of black "thug" underclass culture as immune to criticism, let alone outrage; the incredible pack mentality seen in American black voting behavior, producing percentages for Democrats in every major national election mirroring similar percentages only in totalitarian police states etc., are all indicative of the effect the post-McGovern Democrat Party has had on a group that the Left sees only as ideological cannon fodder.

The Democrats are still the party of Jim Crow, only its no longer Jim Crow but the Great Society/Progressive Social Justice plantation, and the chains are just as real, and just as oppressive. The difference, of course, is that these chains are forged in part by the very people who wear them. No slave in 17th, 18th, or 19th century North America would have ever gone on the auction block of his own free will.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Brackite
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _Brackite »

We need the GOP to continue to be one of the two major political parties in the United States. We don't want America to become like the heavily liberal-leaning States California and Illinois.
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_beastie
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _beastie »

It's really funny to listen to some of you act as if you (or rather, your right-wing media conglomerates) have ferreted out some deeply hidden historical fact that should upend everything. What you're really revealing is your own ignorance on the topic. None of this is new or surprising to anyone with even a modicum amount of curiosity and/or education about the civil rights movement. Yet people like Rand Paul lecture the students of Howard as if he can school them on real history. It's a hoot, but also kind of sad. Because, in the larger picture (and I mean outside this little board where I enjoy watching droopy and his ilk blow regular gaskets), I agree with Brackite. It is important to the health of our country that we have two healthy, functioning parties. And right now the republican party is failing.

But back to the dispute at hand - let's take William Buckley as an example. He is a good example in many ways. While there is no doubt that the modern republican party has become home to a certain racist portion of the population who once made their homes with Southern Democrats, there is a much larger coalition that opposed the civil rights movement for other reasons, but which still translated into being on the wrong end of history, as Buckley himself later admitted.

Asked by Time in 2004 whether he regretted any positions he had taken in the past, Buckley said simply, "Yes. I once believed we could evolve our way up from Jim Crow. I was wrong: federal intervention was necessary."


http://www.claremont.org/publications/c ... detail.asp

by the way, this linked article is excellent and as balanced as I've ever seen on the subject.

The problem with Buckley is that he made statements, sometimes at different points in his life, that can be taken to be totally opposed to racism, or tolerant of racism. This section of the linked article deals with this dilemma, and it is instructive for conservatives in general, not just Buckley.

Liberals and Conservatives

It would be unfair to leave the impression that conservatism was uniquely preoccupied with its own agenda as the civil rights cause was gaining salience. Liberals, too, had other fish to fry, such as consolidating and expanding the New Deal, prosecuting the containment doctrine against the Soviet Union, and forestalling any second act to McCarthyism. Adlai Stevenson won two Democratic presidential nominations, and numberless admirers among liberals, despite: selecting an Alabama segregationist, John Sparkman, to be his running mate in 1952; opposing (more forcefully than did President Eisenhower) any federal role in integrating Southern schools in 1956; and denouncing "the reckless assertions that the South is a prison, in which half the people are prisoners and the other half are wardens."

One difference between Eisenhower-era liberals and conservatives is that the former kept their distance from the civil rights movement for practical reasons while the latter did so for principled ones. Democrats would imperil their chances for a majority in the Electoral College and Congress without the Solid South, a reality that constrained both FDR and JFK. Legend has Lyndon Johnson turning to an aide after signing the Civil Rights Act and saying that the Democrats had just lost the South for a generation. Johnson was the least politically naïve man in America, of course; he looked forward to an election victory and beyond it to forging a Great Society coalition that would secure Democratic victories without the New Deal coalition's reliance on the South. Nevertheless, none of this was assured, and liberals have been nearly as reluctant as conservatives to praise the big political risk Johnson took for the sake of a deep moral conviction.

Having embraced the destruction of Jim Crow and the broader cause of promoting black progress, liberals' belief in the federal government's plenary power facilitated their support for any measure that would, or might, promote civil rights. Conservatives opposed to racial discrimination, however, had few obvious ways to act on that belief without abandoning their long, twilight struggle to re-confine the federal government within its historically defined riverbanks after the New Deal had demolished all the levees. Perlstein portrays Goldwater, a member of the NAACP who had fought against segregation in the Phoenix public schools while on the city council, as anguished by the choice between a moral and a constitutional imperative confronting him in the vote on the civil rights bill.

William Buckley's writings, by contrast, leave the impression that he found the choice between civil rights and the Constitution of limited, enumerated powers regrettable but not especially difficult. (It's worth noting that Buckley's father, born in 1881, grew up in Texas, while his mother was born in 1895 and raised in New Orleans. The "cultural coordinates of our household were Southern," Buckley wrote in his mother's obituary.) If the conservative understanding of constitutional government meant that segregation would persist for decades...then segregation would persist. Conservatives "know that some problems are insoluble," Buckley wrote in 1961. "Should we resort to convulsive measures that do violence to the traditions of our system in order to remove the forms of segregation in the South?" he asked. "I say no." Instead, Buckley expressed the hope that when Negroes have finally realized their long dream of attaining to the status of the white man, the white man will still be free; and that depends, in part, on the moderation of those whose inclination it is to build a superstate that will give them Instant Integration.

Forty years later Buckley and Michael Kinsley shared a series of email exchanges with the readers of Slate. The discussion turned to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, about which Kinsley offered the opinion "that using the power of the government to tell people whom they must do business with really is a major imposition on private freedom.... There's no question the imposition is justified—and has been hugely successful—in rectifying the historical injustice to African-Americans." Buckley, in a formulation John Kerry would have done well not to borrow, responded: "I'd have voted against the bill, but if it were out there today, I'd vote for it, precisely for the reason you gave."

In other words, convulsive measures to overturn segregation were necessary. But then again perhaps not, since Buckley immediately goes on to tell Kinsley, "I'd vote with trepidation, however, for the obvious reason that successful results cannot necessarily legitimize the means by which they were brought about." The desegregation omelet was worth making, but the limited government eggs might or might not have been worth breaking.

Buckley had his reasons, then, for opposing the civil rights movement. Even though he ultimately came to regard that movement's initial and unassailable goal—the end of second-class citizenship in both its petty and vicious aspects—as the more compelling imperative, it was always a close call. Buckley never retracted his limited-government arguments against the civil rights agenda, nor did he relinquish the hope that civil rights could be advanced in ways that impinged only slightly on the conservative project of restoring the founders' republic.

Worse than Missing in Action
The constitutional principles at the heart of this project were—are—ones that liberals find laughable, fantastic, and bizarre. Because they cannot take them seriously they reject the possibility that conservatives do. Thus, liberals dismiss "states' rights" as nothing more than a code word for racism. There is no point in conservatives even asking what the code word for states' rights is, because liberals cannot imagine anyone believes this to be a legitimate political concern.

From this viewpoint, conservatism's "reasons" for opposing civil rights were, in fact and from the beginning, excuses for oppressing blacks. Buckley's least judicious writings make it difficult to wave away that allegation. These are moments in conservatism's history where it was, in Goldberg's sense, worse than merely missing in action in the battle for racial equity.

Exhibit A, quoted triumphantly by Paul Krugman in his new book The Conscience of a Liberal, was a 1957 National Review editorial Buckley wrote, "Why the South Must Prevail." In it, Buckley said that the "central question" is neither "parliamentary" nor one "that is answered by merely consulting a catalogue of the rights of American citizens, born Equal." Rather, it is "whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not predominate numerically?"

And? "The sobering answer is Yes—the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race." In other words, the South "perceives important qualitative differences between its culture and the Negroes', and intends to assert its own," an intention Buckley approves:
If the majority wills what is socially atavistic, then to thwart the majority may be, though undemocratic, enlightened. It is more important for any community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority.


Buckley's subsequent treatment of civil rights issues was more circumspect. In 1957 he regarded the whites' civilization as more advanced both subjectively and objectively. The South perceives important differences between white and black culture, and the white community is the advanced race and what blacks would bring about is atavistic.

Later, Buckley emphasized only the subjective element. Abandoning the argument that whites were objectively more civilized, however, sometimes led to expressions of solicitude for Southern whites who were conspicuously uncivilized. A 1961 editorial beseeches readers to try to understand those whites who responded to the provocation posed by the Northern "Freedom Riders" by beating the crap out of a few of them. "Jim Crow at the bus stations strikes us as unnecessary, and even wrong," Buckley said, but this is "irrelevant" because it "does not strike the average white Southerner as wrong."
That is what they feel, and they feel that their life is for them to structure; that the Negro has grown up under generally benevolent circumstances, considering where he started and how far he had to go; that he is making progress; that the coexistence of that progress and the Southern way of life demand, for the time being, separation.

This was indeed what the South felt, or at least what it said it felt during the early years of the civil rights movement. Buckley's characterization resembles that of the "Southern Manifesto," signed in 1956 by nearly every senator and representative from the South. The Manifesto charged the Supreme Court's Brown decision with destroying the amicable relations between the white and Negro races that have been created through 90 years of patient effort by the good people of both races. It has planted hatred and suspicion where there has been heretofore friendship and understanding.

It's hard for modern readers to decide whether cynicism, or delusion, explains such an assessment.

The single most disturbing thing about Buckley's reactions to the civil rights controversies was the asymmetry of his sympathies—genuine concern for Southern whites beset by integrationists, but more often than not, perfunctory concern for Southern blacks beset by bigots. This disparity culminated in a position on violence committed by whites against blacks and civil rights activists that was reliably equivocal. Like the liberals of the 1960s who didn't condone riots in Watts and Detroit but always understood them, Buckley regularly coupled the obligatory criticism of Southern whites' violent acts with a longer and more fervent denunciation of the provocations that elicited them. Thus, "the nation cannot get away with feigning surprise" when a mob of white students attacks a black woman admitted to the University of Alabama by federal court order in 1956. "For in defiance of constitutional practice, with a total disregard of custom and tradition, the Supreme Court, a year ago, illegalized a whole set of deeply-rooted folkways and mores; and now we are engaged in attempting to enforce our law." Thus, the Freedom Riders went into the South to "challenge with language of unconditional surrender" the whites' "deeply felt" beliefs, and were "met, inevitably, by a spastic response. By violence."


It's an article worth reading for anyone interested in a deeper analysis of the issue than droopy's cartoonish rhetoric. It also demonstrates some of the difficulties conservatives face in trying their minority outreach. The students of Howard are far more aware of this history than buffoons like droopy assume them to be.
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_huckelberry
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _huckelberry »

Droopy wrote:Your lack of intellectual seriousness, legitimate education, and deep, underlying anti-intellectualism are alarming, Beastie, but this very well defines the "low information"


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_moksha
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The problem with black folks...

Post by _moksha »

Capitalism can be equally exploitive of all races. The problem with the majority of black folks is that they have not been voting in such a way as to allow this nondiscriminatory exploitation free reign. With the help of the new Republican campaign to cloud their reason, black and Hispanic folks might be open the door to the shark with the Candygram.
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_Brackite
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _Brackite »

It's a hoot, but also kind of sad. Because, in the larger picture (and I mean outside this little board where I enjoy watching droopy and his ilk blow regular gaskets), I agree with Brackite. It is important to the health of our country that we have two healthy, functioning parties. And right now the republican party is failing.


Thank you, beastie! And I disagree with Droopy's statement about you on this thread here.
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_palerobber
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _palerobber »

when is the last time someone in the GOP actually spoke to african-americans, as opposed to speaking in front of them in a speech aimed at the GOP's racist base?
_palerobber
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Re: The problem with black folks...

Post by _palerobber »

shorter Paul:
african americans are too close-minded to consider an offer of nothing over an offer of something.
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