Armed Cop was at School: didn't go in

[_MsJack]

I feel awful for the guy. He's retirement age (probably 50s or 60s). Probably didn't want to risk catching a bullet having made it to the end.

Doesn't make him any less of a coward or any less poorly suited for his chosen career, but he doesn't deserve the Justine Sacco-esque shaming he's now enduring.

That said, not really sure why the "blue lives matter" crowd has a problem with this.

[_DrW]

Broward County law enforcement has standardized on 9 mm sidearms. Most carry Glocks or Sig Sauers. Some also carry a compact back-up like a 9mm M&P Shield. They train with these weapons continuously as a part of their job. Granted, in an open area gunfight, a 9mm Glock or Sig would not be a match against an AR-15.

However, in the confined spaces of a school building especially with the noise and confusion apparent in some of the phone videos during the incident, a trained officer with a 12 - 15 round double stack 9 mm pistol would have an advantage.

A pistol can be brought to bear on a target at close range and within the confines of a building more quickly than a rifle. Unlike an AR-15, a pistol can be effectively aimed and fired with one hand if necessary, allowing the officer to maintain partial cover while while engaging the target. The officer would also have had the element of surprise. Officers train for this at the outdoor gun range here. This is firearm tactics 101.

While I understand the behavior of the Deputy in question, it cannot be condoned in the least. His inaction was inexcusable. No question he did not perform his duty and no question those 4 minutes cost lives. Not only does he deserve to be fired. He deserves every bit of blame and rancor he will no doubt be receiving.

If a trained law enforcement officer fails to engage, what could a minimally trained civilian teacher really be expected to do?

One clearly possible upshot of Trump's idiotic policy recommendation would be for shooters to give priority to taking out the adults within the field of fire first.

The most effective course of action here is to ban or severely restrict military style semi automatic rifles, especially those with high capacity magazines.

[_subgenius]

Two proposed solutions we know don't work now.

Your post forgot to mention a third proposed solution that does not work - more gun regulations. For example, Adam Lanza acquired an AR-pattern rifle and semi-automatic pistol, as well as ammunition for them, from his Mother, whom he first murdered.
Note that there is a law against murder also...yet....and what gun-regulation would have stopped the mentally ill fella armed with a hatchet that walked into a Virginia school?

Ya know, a funny thing about propping up bad hypothesis with anecdotal evidence is that they are easy to contradict and ultimately makes the post look foolish. For example, your posts claims "we know don't work" when there is evidence that they have worked - see also Arapahoe High School; Assistant Principal Joel Myrick at Pearl High School; James Strand at Parker Middle; Jeanne Assam at New Life (a pistol against an AR-15); School Resource Officer Carolyn Gudger at Sullivan Central; and see other countries for teachers like Syed Hamid Husain, an assistant chemistry professor......and so on and so on.

So, what we actually KNOW is that sometimes it works and other times it does not work...arguably an armed teacher or an armed resource officer has proven to be more effective against an armed assailant in schools than not.

But why let contrary anecdotal evidence interrupt a good hair-fire-post, amiright?

[_Morley]

In other news, a Utah teacher accidentally shoots herself at school.

Three-and-a-half years ago.

Point still stands.

Of course it does. All I'm saying is that it undermines your credibility a little when you insinuate it just happened.

[_Markk]

I feel terrible for him. He probably panicked and froze because he was afraid for his life. That's a clear violation of what he signed up for. He needs to be in a different line of work and should've been fired if he didn't resign first. But he's probably going to be crushed by a relentless mob for this. He doesn't deserve that. I wouldn't be surprised if he commits suicide.

I agree, and I was making this point to a NRA guru the other day on Facebook. People like him and Markk speak as though they have all kinds of experience shooting at other humans. It sounds so easy in theory.

But if trained cops cannot be expected to do well under these kinds of pressures, why expect it from armed teachers?

I believe our cops have a pretty good track record on these types of shootings. But for the record you don't believe we should have armed security for our schools? I am not sure what you are saying. Not to mention the brave teachers that confront these shooter without weapons...the guy froze, he obviously should not have been in that position, and his training needs to be evaluated in my opinion.

According to many on the board, they said or implied, I was wrong on the bump stock vs a semi auto weapon... including you I believe...so by default, doesn't that give you and the others more experience than me at shooting at other humans. Your logic amazes me Kevin.

The cop swore an oath, and he will have to live with his decision, and he had a duty to protect these children and while I know I will be slammed for saying this, but he was a coward. He will have to live with that, and it is unfortunate for everyone he did not do his job.

[_Markk]

what percentage of teachers and cops are prepared for an asymmetric fight where the shooter has body armor and unlimited rounds? Not to mention the element of surprise, a plan, and all-in on the bet.

I always thought that a lone cop is supposed to get backup before confronting a suspect. What are the rules?

I believe I depends on the situation. The police offer has a duty I believe to confront a shooter in that situation, and I am pretty sure it is mandated by law after Columbine.

It is a good question though and crossed my mind also, I will ask my son who is a police officer and taught at one of the largest academies in the country. The deputy's Captain said he should have went straight in and killed the guy...so in his mind calling for back up was no an option.

[_EAllusion]

I've seen a variety of comments all to the effect of, "He should've gone in and killed the guy." This strikes me as as ra-ra nonsense. It seem more accurate to say he should've gone in and tried to kill the guy. Even if he had the tactical advantage, this a significant chance the officer would've been shot and possibly killed. That's the job he signed up for and we count on him to have the courage to risk his life in these rare situations, but it's also understandable when people's courage fails them.

It's not quite the same thing, but I train people to respond to aggressive, dangerous situations, and the people who are able to jump in and those who waiver are rather diverse on both sides. It's hard to predict who will be who in advance. I've seen situations where the biggest, burliest men you ever saw freeze and situations where clearly physically overwhelmed, tiny women jump right in.

We all have different underlying brain architecture and life experiences that lead us up to these points.

[_Kevin Graham]

In other news, a Utah teacher accidentally shoots herself at school.

Three-and-a-half years ago.

Point still stands.

Of course it does. All I'm saying is that it undermines your credibility a little when you insinuate it just happened.

I didn't insinuate anything. Good grief, derailment syndrome kick in with you? Or do you just have no radar for sarcasm?

[_Morley]

Or do you just have no radar for sarcasm?

In this instance, obviously not.

[_Themis]

But for the record you don't believe we should have armed security for our schools?

I think you would need to objectively look at all the factors that may come into play by having armed security in schools, or armed teachers. It all comes down to risk verses benefit. I haven't seen those who propose more guns in schools even address this.

According to many on the board, they said or implied, I was wrong on the bump stock vs a semi auto weapon

You were wrong in situations like Vegas where one has a very large group of people in an open area they cannot vacate quickly. The bump stock would allow one to fire more bullets with their semi auto. Very simple to understand.

the guy froze, he obviously should not have been in that position, and his training needs to be evaluated in my opinion.

Yes he was a coward. I doubt his training is the problem. Training just teaches us how to do a job and how to react under certain conditions, but training can never create those conditions he faced. It's a big problem you see in the military as well. We don't know how we might react when our lives are truly in danger. Fight or flight and in some cases people freeze.

it is unfortunate for everyone he did not do his job.

It is unfortunate he did not try, but we don't know how effective he would have been. Unfortunately I can see the gun nuts using this guy to blame everything on to distract from some really needed changes to gun laws.