BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

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Shulem
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:34 am
If Mormon transcribes something written by the hand of someone else earlier, and yet he includes their testimony to have written it by their own hand much earlier, then doesn’t it stand to reason that all this language really stands as is a testimony that the statement at one time came from the claimed author and not that the artifact is an autograph?

Yes in a sense. When Mormon finished his own record he was able to read everything that everyone else originally wrote or etched on earlier plates. Once that information was transferred on to Mormon's plates then it's no longer an original autograph per se but a copy of the original letter. Mormon's plates were a master copy of everything that had been said previous.

But in the case of Saint Paul whose letters were delivered to the churches abroad, they are autographs and original letters written by his own hand. Those letters were in physical contact with the original author. They were delivered in Paul's time and were received as actual letters written by his own physical hand.

Joseph Smith led the saints to believe the papyri were autographs and originals of the Patriarchs. They were written by their own hands and buried or sealed up during that era in time. Smith would have rejected the idea of the papyri having originated in Ptolemaic times as copies of copies. Everything Smith said was that they were originals manuscripts that had been preserved for 3,500 years in Thebes.
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:06 am
Yes in a sense. When Mormon finished his own record he was able to read everything that everyone else originally wrote or etched on earlier plates. Once that information was transferred on to Mormon's plates then it's no longer an original autograph per se but a copy of the original letter. Mormon's plates were a master copy of everything that had been said previous.

But in the case of Saint Paul whose letters were delivered to the churches abroad, they are autographs and original letters written by his own hand. Those letters were in physical contact with the original author. They were delivered in Paul's time and were received as actual letters written by his own physical hand.

Joseph Smith led the saints to believe the papyri were autographs and originals of the Patriarchs. They were written by their own hands and buried or sealed up during that era in time. Smith would have rejected the idea of the papyri having originated in Ptolemaic times as copies of copies. Everything Smith said was that they were originals manuscripts that had been preserved for 3,500 years in Thebes.
There are plenty of pseudo-Pauline epistles that are accepted as real by Christians.
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

Post by malkie »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:06 am
Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:34 am
If Mormon transcribes something written by the hand of someone else earlier, and yet he includes their testimony to have written it by their own hand much earlier, then doesn’t it stand to reason that all this language really stands as is a testimony that the statement at one time came from the claimed author and not that the artifact is an autograph?

Yes in a sense. When Mormon finished his own record he was able to read everything that everyone else originally wrote or etched on earlier plates. Once that information was transferred on to Mormon's plates then it's no longer an original autograph per se but a copy of the original letter. Mormon's plates were a master copy of everything that had been said previous.

But in the case of Saint Paul whose letters were delivered to the churches abroad, they are autographs and original letters written by his own hand. Those letters were in physical contact with the original author. They were delivered in Paul's time and were received as actual letters written by his own physical hand.

Joseph Smith led the saints to believe the papyri were autographs and originals of the Patriarchs. They were written by their own hands and buried or sealed up during that era in time. Smith would have rejected the idea of the papyri having originated in Ptolemaic times as copies of copies. Everything Smith said was that they were originals manuscripts that had been preserved for 3,500 years in Thebes.
The last plate, though, should contain Mormon's autograph. Nobody claimed to be copying all that he copied plus what he himself wrote, right?
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

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malkie wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:39 am
The last plate, though, should contain Mormon's autograph. Nobody claimed to be copying all that he copied plus what he himself wrote, right?

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Mormon abridged and finished up the record in that respect. Moroni added a few of his words and then Joseph Smith told the entire story while presumably his face was in a hat or in some kind of meditated state. The translation process was indeed mysterious and the modus operandi was by supernatural means that is not understood or practiced in modern Mormonism. Interestingly enough, Smith claimed the title to be an exact translation -- absolutely tight in every way. Whatever Smith did it would appear very creepy to us today.

Joseph Smith wrote:I wish to mention here, that the title-page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf, on the left hand side of the collection or book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated, the language of the whole running the same as all Hebrew writing in general; and that said title-page is not by any means a modern composition, either of mine or of any other man who has lived or does live in this generation. Therefore, in order to correct an error which generally exists concerning it, I give below that part of the title-page of the English version of the Book of Mormon, which is a genuine and literal translation of the title-page of the original Book of Mormon, as recorded on the plates.

And now, on to another point of interest. WHY were the characters of the plates not copied in their entirety into a notebook to preserve and display the record in that format? I can't think of any reason why all of the characters etched on the gold plates were not copied and preserved in a notebook owned by Joseph Smith. Well, I mistake, because I can think of a reason. The gold plates did not exist! There were no ancient records written in an authentic reformed Egyptian! Joseph Smith lied about the plates and he lied about having translating them. That is the only reason why we don't have a copy of the original record or at least substantial portions of it to this day. The whole operation was a lie.

I bear you my testimony that I know Joseph Smith made the whole story up out of the cloth of his own mind and that he performed like an actor by fooling everyone around him including his wife. I testify that I know there were no gold plates and no reformed hieroglyphs were available to examine and copy by sober minded people who could judge for themselves whether Smith's story was true. I know this with all my mind and heart and feel good saying so. Call it the Spirit. Call it intuition or just plain common sense coupled with inspiration. But I know! And that is empowering in and of itself.
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:21 am
There are plenty of pseudo-Pauline epistles that are accepted as real by Christians.

Well, everyone has to have something to keep them excited and enjoy life. Looking back, I was no different and just as crazy as anyone while believing in Mormonism and all the miraculous claims made by Smith.

And now, today will be a rewarding day for the Backyard Professor. Pizza and Super Bowl!

Touchdown, and it doesn't matter which team wins because he likes both. That's what I call a prearranged agreement to a happy ending.

:D
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:29 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:21 am
There are plenty of pseudo-Pauline epistles that are accepted as real by Christians.

Well, everyone has to have something to keep them excited and enjoy life. Looking back, I was no different and just as crazy as anyone while believing in Mormonism and all the miraculous claims made by Smith.

And now, today will be a rewarding day for the Backyard Professor. Pizza and Super Bowl!

Touchdown, and it doesn't matter which team wins because he likes both. That's what I call a prearranged agreement to a happy ending.

:D
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:29 pm
Well, everyone has to have something to keep them excited and enjoy life. Looking back, I was no different and just as crazy as anyone while believing in Mormonism and all the miraculous claims made by Smith.

And now, today will be a rewarding day for the Backyard Professor. Pizza and Super Bowl!

Touchdown, and it doesn't matter which team wins because he likes both. That's what I call a prearranged agreement to a happy ending.

:D
Every day is a winning day for BYP!
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
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Re: BYP Smacks Down John Gee on Papyri Upon His Own Hand Defense

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:56 pm
Every day is a winning day for BYP!

Not if he overdoes on the pizza! Slow down, BYP, and chew your food slowly and don't eat as much pizza as you may have originally planned. Just take your time and eat each bite with prolonged care and extra delight.

In this case, less is better. Or suffer the consequences!

:D
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