The arrogant Mormon “Type A” mindset that got 4 generations killed

[Marcus]

From the comments on the story that included the report:

When the airport manager calls you crazy and says he doesn't know what you are thinking, you should probably listen to him. Reciting a Latter Day Saint prayer before takeoff isn't enough to keep you safe, you also need ADM [Aeronautical Decision-Making].

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/05/l ... us-pc.html

[drumdude]

From the comments on the story that included the report:

When the airport manager calls you crazy and says he doesn't know what you are thinking, you should probably listen to him. Reciting a Latter Day Saint prayer before takeoff isn't enough to keep you safe, you also need ADM [Aeronautical Decision-Making].

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/05/l ... us-pc.html

Good find.

[Tapir Rodeo]

This dangerous type of attitude is so prevalent in the Mormon church. It’s completely unsurprising to me that this type of person would so cavalierly put their entire family at risk. After all, Heavenly Father has blessed them and their moneymaking scheme, how could he let a little ice on their airplane stop them?

I grew up around these types of Mormons and I have more than few sad stories of their unwarranted recklessness causing death or severe injury.

[Moksha]

These two comments in Kathryn's Report offer a great deal of theological thought:

AnonymousWednesday, May 11, 2022 at 4:13:00 PM EDT
in the afterlife, saints believe in the continued identity and existence of all living things after the death of the mortal body. Death does not signify the ending of the eternal soul, but is simply the transition from one form of existence to another and they'll all meet up again.

AnonymousThursday, May 12, 2022 at 4:41:00 PM EDT
Yeah right, let me complete that statement for you:
in the foreside some believe in the continued laminar flow and existence of all lifting forces after the death of the critical angle of attack. Stall does not signify the ending of the lift, but is simply the transition from one form of flow to another and they'll all meet down again. In a vortex - of tangled parts on the ground.

[huckelberry]

From the comments on the story that included the report:

When the airport manager calls you crazy and says he doesn't know what you are thinking, you should probably listen to him. Reciting a Latter Day Saint prayer before takeoff isn't enough to keep you safe, you also need ADM [Aeronautical Decision-Making].

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/05/l ... us-pc.html

that site has the information ,amoung the comments full of horror over the poor decisions I noticed this one. anonymous posted:

It's likely that the qualities of the pilot's personality which led him to be a very successful businessman also led him to be an unsafe pilot. The corporate world rewards the hard charging aggressive types who take risks, break rules, don't take no for an answer, think outside the box and find a way to make a plan work no matter the obstacles. Those same qualities that are great in business are often fatal in aviation and frequently lead to these type of accidents. Anyone wanting to be a pilot who has those qualities should get significant cognitive training in how to turn off, counteract, and set aside those traits every time they take on the PIC role. You basically have to become a completely different person and not everyone is able to manage that.

I may have thought of some Mormon characteristics here but then thought that there are a lot of ways people fall into overconfident bad decision. A Mormon prayer might get involved in a very small percentage of them.

Pardon my writing out an relevant example that my memory insisted on. Years ago I hiked to the top of Mt Daniels a peak in the Cascade mountains east of Seattle. It is one of the highest points in that particular area but reachable by simple hiking no real scramble involved. Near the top there is an east facing rock wall about the size of half a football field, a hiker goes around it. At the base of the rock wall is the compressed remains of a small airplane which obviously flew right into it. If the pilot had been able to see there is plenty of room to fly around or over this peak. Somebody was flying over a mountain range in the clouds. Elevation 7400 ft would get over the peaks right around Snoquome pass but to the north with Mt Daniels is a cluster of higher peaks. The pilot was flying off course in the clouds.

[toon]

You don’t know the attitude. You don’t know what anyone’s motive was. It’s tragic. But to jump to some “arrogant Mormon A-type” attitude is pure speculation. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It was such a tragedy. One that is admittedly personal. It’s one that I hate when used to purposes like this.

I would say “Screw you” but I suspect that may be edited out here.

Edit to add that I didn’t use the word “screw.”

You must not have been around many Mormons who were peddling their MLM scams to all the gullible members of their wards. It’s a very specific type of person, and I’m grateful you are ignorant of that.

In other words, back at ya.

I'm well aware of the MLM scams.

But I also knew one who was on that plane, as well as family members. Be gratetul you're ignorant of that.

[toon]

I don't know, toon, the facts look like the "arrogant Mormon 'Type A' mindset" was definitely in the house.

From transcript of plane audio at 12:17:

...Father in Heaven we
ask for a special blessing now that we take off in this
not so great weather and that (Thy) will watch over and
protect us. impress upon the mind of @ [pilot] that he
might know how best to travel this course that we are
about to do and we are thankful for this airplane and
ask that You will watch over and protect us. *...

In this part, as far as I can tell, 'APT' is the tower, 'RDO-1' is the pilot, 'HOT-1' is another voice from the plane. After tower asked several times if the pilot got the weather report and status, there was this:

12:29:34.4
APT it don't look good to me I don't know what you guys are thinkin'.
12:29:37.6
RDO-1 uh is the runway in good condition?
12:29:40.3
APT I would say I can't hardly keep up.
12:29:43.2
RDO-1 aright I'll be okay...five six kilo juliet.
12:29:46.6
APT what's that?
12:29:47.8
RDO-1 uh we're gonna be just fine...uh I'll go uh backtaxi three one
and we'll uh take off outta here...six kilo juliet.
12:29:54.4
APT 'kay * the runway is not clear.
12:29:57.8
RDO-1 oh I thought you had the - oh - uh let me - let me backtaxi down
and look at it then I'll be back.
12:30:06.2
APT (why) you guys are crazy...I got berms on this thing - I gotta
get the snow outta here.
12:30:25.0
HOT-1 (wonder) what he's been doin’ for the last two hours.
12:30:28.2
APT that don't look good to me.

Here's the timeframe:

The recording began at 12:14:26 and the transcript began at 12:14:55. The engine was
powered on at 12:19:02, taxi out began at 12:29:05, and the takeoff roll began at 12:31:59.
The stall warning sounded shortly after, at 12:32:29. Sounds similar to impact were heard
at 12:33:01. The recording ended shortly thereafter at 12:33:03.

All quotes from:
https://s3-assets.eastidahonews.com/wp- ... SE-Rel.pdf

And from the accident report:

...The pilot and passengers flew to Chamberlain Municipal Airport (9V9) the day before the accident, arriving about 0927. The airplane then remained parked outside on the ramp.

A representative of a local lodge reported that the pilot and passengers stayed overnight. The morning of the accident, the pilot and one passenger stayed back while everyone else went hunting. The representative took the pilot and passenger to the airport to check on the airplane. The pilot thought there would be favorable weather between 1130 and 1430. They took a ladder from the lodge and stopped at a local hardware store to buy isopropyl alcohol. The pilot and passenger worked for about 3 hours to remove the snow and ice that had accumulated on the airplane overnight. The representative noted that the ladder they brought from the lodge was approximately 7 feet tall and did not reach to the top of the tail on the airplane. The pilot stated that they needed to get home, that the airplane was 98% good, and the remaining ice would come off during takeoff. The lodge representative recalled that it was snowing hard at the time the pilot took off.

...The airplane was approved for day/night operations under visual and instrument flight rules, including flight into known icing conditions. The accident airplane was configured with two flight crew seats and eight passenger seats (a total of ten seats). However, twelve individuals were on board during the accident flight and none of them qualified as lap children (less than 2 years of age) under Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations.

An estimated weight & balance calculation for the accident flight indicated that the airplane was about 107 lbs. over the approved maximum gross weight. Center of gravity (CG) calculations indicated that the airplane was loaded 3.99 inches to 5.49 inches beyond the aft CG limit.

...An image study of photos and video footage revealed accumulated precipitation, presumably snow, on the upper surface of the horizontal stabilizer and on the vertical stabilizer with icicles present on the horizontal stabilizer bullet fairing with the airplane parked on the airport ramp and as it began to taxi before the accident takeoff.

...Surface observations indicated low instrument flight rules (LIFR) conditions existed about the time of the accident. The observation taken at 1215 noted light snow; however, moderate snow was observed at 1235. Atmospheric sounding data indicated that moderate or greater airframe icing conditions were likely from the surface to 11,500 ft mean sea level.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/05/l ... us-pc.html

[all bolding added by me]

Yes. It was tragic. Yes, there was a combination of arrogance, gross negligence, over-confidence, etc.

But people are still hurting over this. Yet drumdude sees a need to make a Mormon point about it.

Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, the Big Bopper had to get to a concert. Don't think they were Mormons are part of some MLM scam.

[toon]

This dangerous type of attitude is so prevalent in the Mormon church. It’s completely unsurprising to me that this type of person would so cavalierly put their entire family at risk. After all, Heavenly Father has blessed them and their moneymaking scheme, how could he let a little ice on their airplane stop them?

I grew up around these types of Mormons and I have more than few sad stories of their unwarranted recklessness causing death or severe injury.

It's not exclusive to Mormonism. Type A personalities are not exclusive to Mormonism. I suspect nobody contests that, but I'm not even sure that it's more prevalent in Mormonism than elsewhere.

Mormonism is BS. But let's also deal with it for what it is, instead of spitting on people like I'm seeing here.

[Marcus]

I don't know, toon, the facts look like the "arrogant Mormon 'Type A' mindset" was definitely in the house...
<snip>

Yes. It was tragic. Yes, there was a combination of arrogance, gross negligence, over-confidence, etc.

But people are still hurting over this. Yet drumdude sees a need to make a Mormon point about it...

I'm sorry for your loss.

Yes, it seems pretty clear there was 'a Mormon point,' as the quotes in many posts have demonstrated. The only thing that can be done now is try to avoid future similar occurrences. Pointing out that the Mormon mind-set contributed significantly to the gross negligence does that.

[toon]

Yes. It was tragic. Yes, there was a combination of arrogance, gross negligence, over-confidence, etc.

But people are still hurting over this. Yet drumdude sees a need to make a Mormon point about it...

I'm sorry for your loss.

Yes, it seems pretty clear there was 'a Mormon point,' as the quotes in many posts have demonstrated. The only thing that can be done now is try to avoid future similar occurrences. Pointing out that the Mormon mind-set contributed significantly to the gross negligence does that.

Nothing in this thread is new. All close to those involved are well aware. There was a cause to what happened, and a point to be made about it. But it's not a Mormon point.

I think it's a good thing that this forum is such an obscure corner that those closer this what happened than I am will never see this thread. I am not a believer, and with a number of others, considered part of the family's blacksheep flock. But I respect their faith and believes, as they have mostly done with me. Those were really good people.