A Covenant People

[MG 2.0]

I think that a Covenant People is admirable. A people who have made covenants with God to keep his commandments so as to be worthy of His blessings is not something to be trifled with or mocked. One may not believe that the covenants do or don't actually have any meaningful purpose or effect...but the fact is, Latter-day Saints who make and keep their covenants believe that this is between them and their God.

Those covenants lead them to serve others, do righteous actions/works, treat others with Christian dignity and respect, etc. I see that as a net positive in the world.

It's really that simple.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

I think that a Covenant People is admirable. A people who have made covenants with God to keep his commandments so as to be worthy of His blessings is not something to be trifled with or mocked. One may not believe that the covenants do or don't actually have any meaningful purpose or effect...but the fact is, Latter-day Saints who make and keep their covenants believe that this is between them and their God.

Those covenants lead them to serve others, do righteous actions/works, treat others with Christian dignity and respect, etc. I see that as a net positive in the world.

It's really that simple.

Regards,
MG

Mormon God's people with which he covenants would but for the covenants just be heathens running around raping and pillaging.

[MG 2.0]

That’s a thoughtful breakdown, Gad, and I think you’re right that the “covenant” idea often functions in practice more as an institutional construct than a spiritual one.

When it comes up in discussions, it can feel less like a theological reflection and more like a moral judgment. A way to shame or disqualify those who’ve stepped away.

That was my impression of how it was being used in the other thread. The mention of “covenants” wasn’t to explore the meaning, but to remind people that they’ve broken one.

I thought it was a cheap shot, frankly.

I suppose you would. Covenant is a 'spiritual' commitment with God. Not the institution of the church. See my previous post. One can bend and contort that which is simple into a convoluted pretzel of illogic, but that doesn't take away from the fact and purpose of what covenants actually are.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

That’s a thoughtful breakdown, Gad, and I think you’re right that the “covenant” idea often functions in practice more as an institutional construct than a spiritual one.

When it comes up in discussions, it can feel less like a theological reflection and more like a moral judgment. A way to shame or disqualify those who’ve stepped away.

That was my impression of how it was being used in the other thread. The mention of “covenants” wasn’t to explore the meaning, but to remind people that they’ve broken one.

I thought it was a cheap shot, frankly.

I suppose you would. Covenant is a 'spiritual' commitment with God. Not the institution of the church. See my previous post. One can bend and contort that which is simple into a convoluted pretzel of illogic, but that doesn't take away from the fact and purpose of what covenants actually are.

Regards,
MG

I don’t intend to redefine anyone’s personal understanding of covenants, MG.

My point was about how the term gets used in conversation; sometimes as spiritual commitment, sometimes as institutional shorthand, and sometimes (intentionally or not) as social leverage.

I was commenting on that rhetorical use, not the theology itself.

[Gadianton]

I think that a Covenant People is admirable. A people who have made covenants with God to keep his commandments so as to be worthy of His blessings is not something to be trifled with or mocked. One may not believe that the covenants do or don't actually have any meaningful purpose or effect...but the fact is, Latter-day Saints who make and keep their covenants believe that this is between them and their God.

Those covenants lead them to serve others, do righteous actions/works, treat others with Christian dignity and respect, etc. I see that as a net positive in the world.

It's really that simple.

Regards,
MG

You're drifting from your original use:

Covenant theology such as that found in the LDS Church gives structure and spiritual weight to service, it’s not just about doing good, but about fulfilling a sacred promise to God.

Your original use was to add big points to Mormons who do basic service because it was part of a covenant, to make run-of-the-mill do-gooding extra special. Now you're just saying a covenant urges Mormons to do good including treating others with dignity and respect. How can anybody disagree with something that causes people to be nice?

[I Have Questions]

I think that a Covenant People is admirable. A people who have made covenants with God to keep his commandments so as to be worthy of His blessings is not something to be trifled with or mocked. One may not believe that the covenants do or don't actually have any meaningful purpose or effect...but the fact is, Latter-day Saints who make and keep their covenants believe that this is between them and their God.

Those covenants lead them to serve others, do righteous actions/works, treat others with Christian dignity and respect, etc. I see that as a net positive in the world.

It's really that simple.

Regards,
MG

If covenants were really important to you you’d be serving a senior mission (Law of Sacrifice, Law of Consecration). So where the rubber meets the road you place your life of convenience about your covenants with God. So you say they’re important, but you don’t act as if they’re important.

When the First Presidency was caught operating a nefarious shell company scheme to illicitly avoid financial reporting and incurred a $5 million fine, was that not a breach of covenants?

[MG 2.0]

I think that a Covenant People is admirable. A people who have made covenants with God to keep his commandments so as to be worthy of His blessings is not something to be trifled with or mocked. One may not believe that the covenants do or don't actually have any meaningful purpose or effect...but the fact is, Latter-day Saints who make and keep their covenants believe that this is between them and their God.

Those covenants lead them to serve others, do righteous actions/works, treat others with Christian dignity and respect, etc. I see that as a net positive in the world.

It's really that simple.

Regards,
MG

If covenants were really important to you you’d be serving a senior mission (Law of Sacrifice, Law of Consecration). So where the rubber meets the road you place your life of convenience about your covenants with God. So you say they’re important, but you don’t act as if they’re important.

When the First Presidency was caught operating a nefarious shell company scheme to illicitly avoid financial reporting and incurred a $5 million fine, was that not a breach of covenants?

Senior missions are served as husband and wife. Our situation with my wife's parents has not allowed us to go on a mission yet. Individual circumstances vary.

The judgement of critics is fairly uniform and predictable.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

If covenants were really important to you you’d be serving a senior mission (Law of Sacrifice, Law of Consecration). So where the rubber meets the road you place your life of convenience about your covenants with God. So you say they’re important, but you don’t act as if they’re important.

When the First Presidency was caught operating a nefarious shell company scheme to illicitly avoid financial reporting and incurred a $5 million fine, was that not a breach of covenants?

Senior missions are served as husband and wife. Our situation with my wife's parents has not allowed us to go on a mission yet. Individual circumstances vary.

The judgement of critics is fairly uniform and predictable.

Regards,
MG

Such could be said for a fair percentage of 18, 19 and 20 year olds, that their parent's circumstances do not allow as the child is needed at home to help out. But, the LDS church doesn't allow for that--you know, the 'every able bodied young man' should serve a mission B.S.

[I Have Questions]

If covenants were really important to you you’d be serving a senior mission (Law of Sacrifice, Law of Consecration). So where the rubber meets the road you place your life of convenience about your covenants with God. So you say they’re important, but you don’t act as if they’re important.

When the First Presidency was caught operating a nefarious shell company scheme to illicitly avoid financial reporting and incurred a $5 million fine, was that not a breach of covenants?

Senior missions are served as husband and wife. Our situation with my wife's parents has not allowed us to go on a mission yet. Individual circumstances vary.

The judgement of critics is fairly uniform and predictable.

Regards,
MG

Those covenants don’t include the caveat “if it suits” or “if it’s convenient” or “if circumstances permit”. You’re expected to trust that the Lord will take care of things back home if you have the faith to honour your covenants. Clearly you don’t have the courage of your claimed conviction. Which is fine. That’s your choice. But don’t pretend that covenants are special to you, when they clearly aren’t.

[Res Ipsa]

MG’s argument here makes no sense to me. Let’s take a vanilla Christian who is saved by accepting Jesus Christ as their savior. If that Christian obeys Gods laws, it is out of no expectation of further reward. They are conforming to God’s will out of love and devotion.

A covenant is transactional. God makes a promise to his followers in exchange for their obedience. The obedience is conditioned on some expectation of a reward from God. It is not selfless; it is selfish. So why is the obedience more praiseworthy than that of the vanilla Christian who does the same thing in anticipation of no reward whatsoever?