D&C 127:2

[MetaProf]

For the record, I didn't say "horse crap"

Horse poo poo?

Regards,
MG

Sure Jan

[MetaProf]

What do you find valuable about this video? I won't assume (as others here might) that you haven't actually watched it, but it seems so vacuous as to be a waste of time. It's just saying that "we do good stuff and we should keep doing it regardless of what people say about our beliefs". and that isn't an argument. It's just a 15 minute video telling us that Joseph Smith said people wouldn't like him and people won't like us either and so we're all in good company. what's the take-away here?

[Gadianton]

I would challenge those here to listen to the complete presentation without holding your nose and return and report. I’m particularly interested in responses from those that actually watch the complete presentation and do so with an open mind to what he is saying.

It was short enough that I watched most of it, but it was quite repetitive and vacuous, to be honest. He doesn't define his terminology and so "anti-Mormonism" becomes a boogeyman. He used the tragic chapel attack to score victim points for himself. The problem with that situation is that the anti-Mormonism of the perpetrator is of the Evangelical variety and thoroughly infused with MAGA nonsense. His views of the world were likely to be fairly aligned with a good percentage of right-wing Mormons. All these right-wingers have violent fantasies about the devil at the center of their fav conspiracy and patriots getting into their truck with a gun and a flag to do the Lord's work. I stood discussing this stuff for an hour with a QAnon guy in my neighborhood several years ago who wanted to buy a Velociraptor and mount a machine gun in the back to drive around and kill liberals once Donald Trump were to give the signal. He knew I'd been Mormon and had no problem with Mormons. The fact that this other guy had Mormons as the enemy due to a bad personal relationship is a small change within a larger, shared narrative that permeates the religious right. The anti-Mormons you banter with on this forum have nothing to do with the worldview of unhinged right-wingers who wave the American flag as they attack buildings like capitols and churches.

Is a young person more likely to get attacked on Tik-Tok for being Mormon or for being woke or trans? Further, the kind of "anti-Mormonism" you find on this forum is unlikely to resonate with people perpetrating these attacks because it's too abstract.

Without more care to define what he means by anti-Mormonism, it sounds an awful lot like he's trying to leverage the possibility of violence from mundane disagreement. Any criticism of Mormonism is anti-Mormonism and a threat. You seem to think this forum is an example of exactly what he's talking about. It's still a free country, and we ought to criticize the hell out of religions that make bold claims and take peoples' time and money. It's their choice to get fleeced, but it's our choice to offer the other side of the story.

[yellowstone123]

MG 2.0 — It seems that there are a few revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants that were recorded after the 1838 Battle of Crooked River. Perhaps Smith brought state fury upon himself by orchestrating the bringing of arms across state lines—from Ohio to Missouri—to equip Mormon militias during the 1838 conflict. Missouri authorities interpreted this as preparing to engage in armed resistance, which contributed to the treason charge. In those days, treason was considered a capital offense, and some states did impose hanging for it. Smith was arrested, but he later escaped from custody. And, of course, in later retellings it was all attributed to anti-Mormon persecution.

[MG 2.0]

It's still a free country, and we ought to criticize the hell out of religions that make bold claims and take peoples' time and money. It's their choice to get fleeced, but it's our choice to offer the other side of the story.

I won't argue with the fact that there is/should be a freedom to exercise judgement on your religious/non-religious impulses and act on them. One thing to keep in mind is that one person's belief/opinion that believers are being "fleeced" is just that.

Opinion/belief.

And that's about as far as it goes. Many people in and out of the LDS Church truly believe they are being blessed in some form or fashion for making a sacrifice to what they see as the greater good. And they're not stupid.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

MG 2.0 — It seems that there are a few revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants that were recorded after the 1838 Battle of Crooked River. Perhaps Smith brought state fury upon himself by orchestrating the bringing of arms across state lines—from Ohio to Missouri—to equip Mormon militias during the 1838 conflict. Missouri authorities interpreted this as preparing to engage in armed resistance, which contributed to the treason charge. In those days, treason was considered a capital offense, and some states did impose hanging for it. Smith was arrested, but he later escaped from custody. And, of course, in later retellings it was all attributed to anti-Mormon persecution.

"Anti-Mormon" back then might have looked different in some respects than it does today.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

What do you find valuable about this video? I won't assume (as others here might) that you haven't actually watched it, but it seems so vacuous as to be a waste of time. It's just saying that "we do good stuff and we should keep doing it regardless of what people say about our beliefs". and that isn't an argument. It's just a 15 minute video telling us that Joseph Smith said people wouldn't like him and people won't like us either and so we're all in good company. what's the take-away here?

D&C 127:2
And as for the perils which I am called to pass through, they seem but a small thing to me, as the envy and wrath of man have been my common lot all the days of my life; and for what cause it seems mysterious, unless I was ordained from before the foundation of the world for some good end, or bad, as you may choose to call it. Judge ye for yourselves. God knoweth all these things, whether it be good or bad. But nevertheless, deep water is what I am wont to swim in. It all has become a second nature to me; and I feel, like Paul, to glory in tribulation; for to this day has the God of my fathers delivered me out of them all, and will deliver me from henceforth; for behold, and lo, I shall triumph over all my enemies, for the Lord God hath spoken it.

If you watched the presentation, you noticed that Dr. Halverson emphasized certain words and phrase in this verse. The thing that struck me is just how 'self-aware' and confident Joseph seems to be in response to all that he has experienced and what has gone on around him for years. His confidence in God has not diminished a whit when it comes to knowing/understanding what the 'end game' is even though he is suffering through many trials.

Joseph had also had received this revelation:

D&C 121:7-8
My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

So similar, to a much lesser extent, than Jesus on the cross, Joseph knew for a fact that there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I suppose having that knowledge gave him an edge. He seemed to understand that the work which was initiated through him would continue. He wasn't worried about that.

127:2 is actually quite a powerful verse when you look at it in detail as Halverson did.

Regards,
MG

[MetaProf]

You've veered into your own non-sequitur dude. What does this have to do with your "Why I do it"? You are preaching in the middle of a discussion. Why?

[MetaProf]

Also for real what is the point of saying out loud, as an adult human, that "Dr. Halverson emphasized certain words and phrase [sic] in this verse"?

[Gadianton]

If you watched the presentation, you noticed that Dr. Halverson emphasized certain words and phrase in this verse. The thing that struck me is just how 'self-aware' and confident Joseph seems to be in response to all that he has experienced and what has gone on around him for years. His confidence in God has not diminished a whit when it comes to knowing/understanding what the 'end game' is even though he is suffering through many trials.

You know MG, it reminds me of a guy from my ward during my childhood who did a hefty prison stint for defrauding a good number of folks in our ward and elsewhere. I still recall the night he came to our home to rope in my parents, who fortunately turned him down. The most spiritual, self-assured man you'd ever met. The testimonies he bore were off the scale. And when he was finally done in, like Joseph Smith, he didn't let it get him down. He doubled down -- as I was told -- on his conviction that he was in the right. He even insisted on defending himself in trial, that's how confident he was.

They call men like these and Joseph Smith "confidence men" for a reason, MG.