Why A Morbidly Obsese Mopologist Is Losing Sleep Over A Friend's Latte

[Doctor Scratch]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the prohibition on coffee stem from Brigham Young's anti-free-market manipulation of import/export policies? So in a sense, the Proprietor's attitudes towards coffee may be partially related to his slavish hero-worship of BY.

[I Have Questions]

Peterson noted he doesn’t believe Gentiles drinking coffee is a moral failing.

It seems like he’s arguing it’s a loyalty test to see if Mormons will follow Mormon God’s commands even if they’re arbitrary.

Oh I agree. The Word of Wisdom is not about the spirit of moderation and temperance. It’s about badge wearing, and being vocal about it. That’s why really fat people through overeating hold temple recommends, when in reality they are miserably failing to live the code.

He’s like a chain smoker condemning people who drink wine.

[drumdude]

Peterson noted he doesn’t believe Gentiles drinking coffee is a moral failing.

It seems like he’s arguing it’s a loyalty test to see if Mormons will follow Mormon God’s commands even if they’re arbitrary.

Oh I agree. The Word of Wisdom is not about the spirit of moderation and temperance. It’s about badge wearing, and being vocal about it. That’s why really fat people through overeating hold temple recommends, when in reality they are miserably failing to live the code.

He’s like a chain smoker condemning people who drink wine.

I think the LDS leadership find the WoW is useful as a sign of being in the group. It’s why they don’t care about eating meat sparingly or in season. You can’t brand that.

[huckelberry]

I would not incline to remark on this thread but the cartoon made me wish to eat a hamburger. I like them in various sizes, even on occasion oversized. But I am not much worried about my enjoyment of coffee. It has decreased some over the years but I still enjoy some coffee.

I actually read what Mr. Peterson said about coffee. He is clear that he was saddened by an adult leaving the faith, not that coffee itself was terrible. I may not share his feelings about people leaving his faith but I find little difficulty understanding his feeling.

I hope he enjoys his hamburger as I hope to enjoy one too.

[Gadianton]

HUH -- would the "covenant-keeping nineteenth century saints" have served a senior mission, or would that have been too hard for them?

Utterly psychologically fascinating. If drinking coffee is an obedience marker, it might not work in the way that the Afore thinks it does.

My experience from back in the day was that those who made a huge deal out of commandments like coffee, keeping the Sabbath, refusing to use face cards -- those who made a huge freaking deal out of "easy" commandments (It's not hard to forego coffee if you didn't grow up with it), were those who were guilty of very substantial sins themselves. I'm thinking mainly of people in my age group, fellow BYU students and so on. Missionaries.

For some reason, people harboring major sins love to get dogmatic on easy stuff, the granny shots, and virtue signal about it.

If life is a test, it seems obvious that God would be most interested in commandments that are "optional" with low vs/effort, such as a senior mission, and use those with high vs/effort as "honey pot" commandments -- almost as a way to track those who are likely to be hiding something substantial.

by the way, the IRS works in the same way. This is from years ago, but a coworker who suspected his neighbor was a drug Lord asked him once, very carefully, how he avoided getting caught? The guy said the ones who get caught are those who are superficially too clean, account for every paper clip etc.

[canpakes]

Perhaps he's upset they don't put enough sugar and fat in it for his tastes, so he's insecure at those black coffee drinkers?

You’re close to the solution. One just needs to add milk in sufficient quantity to change the drink from a Lamanite beverage with a body of darkness into a nearly-white and delightsome Nephite concoction.

[I Have Questions]

HUH -- would the "covenant-keeping nineteenth century saints" have served a senior mission, or would that have been too hard for them?

Utterly psychologically fascinating. If drinking coffee is an obedience marker, it might not work in the way that the Afore thinks it does.

My experience from back in the day was that those who made a huge deal out of commandments like coffee, keeping the Sabbath, refusing to use face cards -- those who made a huge freaking deal out of "easy" commandments (It's not hard to forego coffee if you didn't grow up with it), were those who were guilty of very substantial sins themselves. I'm thinking mainly of people in my age group, fellow BYU students and so on. Missionaries.

For some reason, people harboring major sins love to get dogmatic on easy stuff, the granny shots, and virtue signal about it.

If life is a test, it seems obvious that God would be most interested in commandments that are "optional" with low vs/effort, such as a senior mission, and use those with high vs/effort as "honey pot" commandments -- almost as a way to track those who are likely to be hiding something substantial.

by the way, the IRS works in the same way. This is from years ago, but a coworker who suspected his neighbor was a drug Lord asked him once, very carefully, how he avoided getting caught? The guy said the ones who get caught are those who are superficially too clean, account for every paper clip etc.

It’s interesting that Peterson uses coffee to frame why people leave the Church. Shouldn’t Peterson be bemoaning why his Church’s congregations make people who drink coffee feel unwelcome? I know many coffee drinkers, smokers, alcohol drinkers etc etc etc who are made very welcome in Mormon congregations. Perhaps Peterson’s coffee problem lies closer to home. Perhaps he will consider giving a Sacrament Talk on how and why his own ward should do better at making people feel welcome, instead of just blowing hot air on a personal outrage blog.

[Tom]

I must confess that a friend of mine—who is a member of the sixth generation in his family to be born in the covenant, advanced from primary a year early, graduated at the top of his seminary class, served as a zone leader for most of his mission, married a faithful young woman in the temple two months after returning home from his mission, graduated from Ricks College (now BYU-Idaho) and Brigham Young University in Provo, paid his tithing on time for thirty-three years in a row, amassed a four-year emergency food and ammunition supply, held season tickets for BYU football year after year, subscribed to church magazines without interruption since he was eighteen years old, voted for Mitt Romney and Evan McMullin for president in, respectively, 2012 and 2016, sent his six children to American Heritage School in Panguitch, contributed funds to build the FARMS ziggurat, celebrated Smithmas every year, and has served in at least thirty callings—has recently taken up frequent meat-eating—and rather seriously so, seeking out hunting, butchering, processing, curing, tenderizing, marinating, seasoning, and cooking (including summertime barbecuing) recommendations from other, more experienced, meat-eaters.

Why does the news that my friend is now a regular and serious eater of all kinds of meat (including beef, chicken, duck, turkey, lamb, goose, squirrel, venison, veal, mutton, kangaroo, bison, pork, bacon, rabbit, goat, pheasant, ostrich, quail, emu, fish, lobster, scallops, and crab)—instead of remaining faithful to his commitments and covenants that he once took upon himself to eat meat sparingly and only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine (D&C 89:12-13)—depress me so?

[Gadianton]

Your friend was guilty of "looking beyond the mark" and now has corrected his course as one who disappears into a crowd and sustains the party line.

Dan is right that the real sin here is the optics. (he's wrong about the level of effort required to live the optics). His friend could get away with coffee drinking if he a) hid it from his leaders and lied about it in bishop's interviews. If he ever were caught, the key is to emphasize his own weakness, not question command. b) if he has high charisma, drink it somewhat openly, but with great shame if ever asked. "I know I shouldn't". The goal would be for the knowing bishop to know not to ask anything too specific to let him get away with it.

[Limnor]

My experience from back in the day was that those who made a huge deal out of commandments like coffee, keeping the Sabbath, refusing to use face cards -- those who made a huge freaking deal out of "easy" commandments (It's not hard to forego coffee if you didn't grow up with it), were those who were guilty of very substantial sins themselves. I'm thinking mainly of people in my age group, fellow BYU students and so on. Missionaries.

No face cards?