FAIR Journal - Message from Gordy

[_rcrocket]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What does it take for you to accept that Joe boinked these victims?

I think you have the maxim wrong. Absence of evidence is, indeed, evidence of absence. Indeed, the absence of evidence is trumpted all the time as evidence of absence.

The maxim you hear repeated in anti-Mormon circles is that the absence of evidence is not evidence that something might exist. (For instance, the absence of evidence of horses [fn1] in pre-Columbian America is not evidence that horses may have existed.)

[fn1]: Of course, I have cited the Smithsonian find from the 40s of horse remains which predate Columbus.

The maxim that you should be citing to me, but haven't, is that a married couple is presumed to have had connubial relations. But, you haven't cited that to me and too late now.


rcrocket

[_rcrocket]

So, we have affidavits from women who said they were wives of Joseph Smith (and I don't dispute them), but none from women who claimed to be married to other men and having connubial relations with Joseph Smith and another man at the same time?

We have the affidavit of Josephine Fisher, whose polyandrous mother told her she was the daughter of Joseph Smith. We also have the public statement of another polyandrous wife saying she knew of several children fathered by Joseph Smith but who were growing up with another name -- do you believe Sister Lightner was lying?

I take it -- no affidavits from wives married to two at once? [Don't bother -- I know you never concede a single point. Move on.]

[_charity]

So, we have affidavits from women who said they were wives of Joseph Smith (and I don't dispute them), but none from women who claimed to be married to other men and having connubial relations with Joseph Smith and another man at the same time?

We have the affidavit of Josephine Fisher, whose polyandrous mother told her she was the daughter of Joseph Smith. We also have the public statement of another polyandrous wife saying she knew of several children fathered by Joseph Smith but who were growing up with another name -- do you believe Sister Lightner was lying?

We also know that when a man and woman are sealed, and later the woman has children biologically fathered by another man the child belongs to the man she is sealed to. Josephine's mother could very well have been referring to that. And by the time Josephine was making her statements, mom was no longer around to clarify.

And so far, the claims of individuals that Joseph Smith was their ancestor have all been proven false. Except for one, which is still being studied.

Forgetting to mention scientifically obtained evidence, and preferring to go on unreliable anecdotal statements, is a serious lapse here.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I take it -- no affidavits from wives married to two at once?

Again, go back and read my post. I never said there were such affidavits. I did say there were affidavits to refute charity's silly claim that there is no evidence of Joseph Smith having sex with any of his plural wives.

[Don't bother -- I know you never concede a single point. Move on.]

I'd be happy to concede anything if true -- you simply have misunderstood the context of my proffering affidavits of some of Joseph Smith's plural wives to refute charity's "no sex" claim.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

We also know that when a man and woman are sealed, and later the woman has children biologically fathered by another man the child belongs to the man she is sealed to. Josephine's mother could very well have been referring to that. And by the time Josephine was making her statements, mom was no longer around to clarify.

Are you still claiming Joseph Smith did not have sex with any of his plural wives, or just the polyandrous ones?

And so far, the claims of individuals that Joseph Smith was their ancestor have all been proven false. Except for one, which is still being studied.

Which, coincidentally enough, happens to be the aforementioned Josephine Fisher.

Forgetting to mention scientifically obtained evidence, and preferring to go on unreliable anecdotal statements, is a serious lapse here.

From this statement are you still claiming that Joseph Smith did not have sex with any of his plural wives?

[_harmony]

We also know that when a man and woman are sealed, and later the woman has children biologically fathered by another man the child belongs to the man she is sealed to. Josephine's mother could very well have been referring to that. And by the time Josephine was making her statements, mom was no longer around to clarify.

And so far, the claims of individuals that Joseph Smith was their ancestor have all been proven false. Except for one, which is still being studied.

Forgetting to mention scientifically obtained evidence, and preferring to go on unreliable anecdotal statements, is a serious lapse here.

Whether or not children resulted from the liasions, that the women made the claim is enough for some of us. Just because there may have been no children doesn't mean there was no sex.

We know Prescindia claimed to not know if Joseph or her husband was the father of her son Oliver. We have Josephine's claims. We have a clouded issue with Marinda Hyde, with people counting backwards on their fingers to when Orson left. There would be no speculation, if Joseph hadn't sent her husband away and then secretly married her. People talk, and usually when there's smoke, there's fire.

The problem is one of a hundred and more years of trying to make sense of one man's inability to control his libido. Offering this explanation and that explanation doesn't cover the facts, and the facts are quite clear: Joseph commited adultery with young girls under his protection and with his friends' wives, Joseph lied about it in public to his followers and in private to his wife, and Joseph conjured up a revelation to cover his exposure, a revelation not canonized until his followers were stuck out in the desert with nowhere else to go and he was long dead.

The idea that God would take any prophet from the earth who led the church astray has long been fulfilled: Joseph died well before his time, killed by a mob after God turned his back on him. Sec 132 is not God-breathed. That alone may be justification for God withdrawing his protection.

[_rcrocket]

I take it -- no affidavits from wives married to two at once?

Again, go back and read my post. I never said there were such affidavits. I did say there were affidavits to refute charity's silly claim that there is no evidence of Joseph Smith having sex with any of his plural wives.

[Don't bother -- I know you never concede a single point. Move on.]

I'd be happy to concede anything if true -- you simply have misunderstood the context of my proffering affidavits of some of Joseph Smith's plural wives to refute charity's "no sex" claim.

Then concede my point. There are no affidavits from women who claimed to have been having connubial relations with two men at once -- one of them being the President of the Church.

Or how about a newspaper interview? That would be a lot weaker but I'd like to see it.

rcrocket

[_rcrocket]

People talk, and usually when there's smoke, there's fire.

Now THAT is quality evidence and critical thinking, particularly when you deal with a despised religion not too adept at defending itself in the press.

rcrocket

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Then concede my point. There are no affidavits from women who claimed to have been having connubial relations with two men at once -- one of them being the President of the Church.

Even though that wasn't my original point about affidavits, I concede (to my knowledge) there are no affidavits from polyandrous wives admitting to sexual relations with Joseph Smith. However, polyandrous wife Mary Lightner did provide an affidavit on March 23, 1877, in which she said "in the month of March 1841 [1842?] Brigham Young sealed us for time and all Eternity." The affidavit can be found in the Scott Kenney collection at the U.'s Marriott Library, box 11, folder 14; see also her Autobiography in the Mary Lightner collection at BYU's Lee Library, as well as her statement dated Feb. 8, 1902, in the same collection.

Or how about a newspaper interview? That would be a lot weaker but I'd like to see it.

Zina Jacob's interview can be found in Saints Herald 52 (Jan. 11, 1905).

[_rcrocket]

Then concede my point. There are no affidavits from women who claimed to have been having connubial relations with two men at once -- one of them being the President of the Church.

Even though that wasn't my original point about affidavits, I concede (to my knowledge) there are no affidavits from polyandrous wives admitting to sexual relations with Joseph Smith. However, polyandrous wife Mary Lightner did provide an affidavit on March 23, 1877, in which she said "in the month of March 1841 [1842?] Brigham Young sealed us for time and all Eternity." The affidavit can be found in the Scott Kenney collection at the U.'s Marriott Library, box 11, folder 14; see also her Autobiography in the Mary Lightner collection at BYU's Lee Library, as well as her statement dated Feb. 8, 1902, in the same collection.

Or how about a newspaper interview? That would be a lot weaker but I'd like to see it.

Zina Jacob's interview can be found in Saints Herald 52 (Jan. 11, 1905).

Zina is your best case among weak cases. More later.