I'm so glad the church spares no expense...

[_the road to hana]

This also is true. Most Mormons have no idea about much of anything. They try hard to live a life of service and sacrifice, only to have their efforts negated by their leaders. Sad, but true.

I think there's another element here, though, harmony, which might not be true for you, but is true for some. For some, whose means might be somewhat more modest, an LDS temple is something akin to country club membership. That is, they've been faithful tithepayers, and they get to go into this nice building (as long as their recommend is current, which is the incentive for paying the membership fee) and feel a sense of ownership and belonging, and a sense of being gods in embryo. That can be pretty heady stuff for people of more modest means.

So really, for some LDS faithful, having a beautiful temple building to go to is like having membership in a country club whose club building is more lavish than their own residence, and once inside that building, they don't feel discriminated on the basis of social class or standing.

(I'd add that Mormons have a thing for artificial flowers, and yes, LDS temple interiors would certainly benefit from fresh ones, but will likely never have them.)

[_harmony]

Oh wow a million dollars in Katrina aid, that's nothing when the church makes billions of dollars each year.

She doesn't get it, SUAS. And it's likely she never will. Whatever the leaders do or say is okay with her, because if she questions their actions, her faith takes a hit. They have to be right, or that means she has misplaced her trust. It's personal to her.

[_harmony]

This also is true. Most Mormons have no idea about much of anything. They try hard to live a life of service and sacrifice, only to have their efforts negated by their leaders. Sad, but true.

I think there's another element here, though, harmony, which might not be true for you, but is true for some. For some, whose means might be somewhat more modest, an LDS temple is something akin to country club membership. That is, they've been faithful tithepayers, and they get to go into this nice building (as long as their recommend is current, which is the incentive for paying the membership fee) and feel a sense of ownership and belonging, and a sense of being gods in embryo. That can be pretty heady stuff for people of more modest means.

So really, for some LDS faithful, having a beautiful temple building to go to is like having membership in a country club whose club building is more lavish than their own residence, and once inside that building, they don't feel discriminated on the basis of social class or standing.

(I'd add that Mormons have a thing for artificial flowers, and yes, LDS temple interiors would certainly benefit from fresh ones, but will likely never have them.)

You may be correct, Hana. I think most members would cring, though, at Inconceivable's comment about the 17 cents a day to feed a starving child, while the church spends megabucks on imported marble.

The flowers are like a lightning rod for me. What do they represent? A lot:

1. poor taste, plebian crass taste, Wasatch-front taste.

2. penny-wise, pound-foolish financial decisions. The leaders go all out on some stuff, but they cheap out on that which is easily noticed.

3. plastic is man-made; real flowers are God-made. The leaders choose, once again, the man-made, the cheap imitation.

That sums up our leaders, for the most part: cheap imitations. Most of them are businessmen masquerading as spiritual leaders, and they come across as cheap imitations.

[_the road to hana]

The flowers are like a lightning rod for me. What do they represent? A lot:

1. poor taste, plebian crass taste, Wasatch-front taste.

2. penny-wise, pound-foolish financial decisions. The leaders go all out on some stuff, but they cheap out on that which is easily noticed.

3. plastic is man-made; real flowers are God-made. The leaders choose, once again, the man-made, the cheap imitation.

That sums up our leaders, for the most part: cheap imitations. Most of them are businessmen masquerading as spiritual leaders, and they come across as cheap imitations.

It's noteworthy that when there are satellite broadcasts from Salt Lake City (whether General Conference, Christmas broadcast, or Tabernacle Choir broadcasts), there are always fresh flowers, in abundance, in the Conference Center or Tabernacle.

It's inside the temples that the flowers are artificial.

I believe if there were anything broadcast or open to public viewing inside the temples (and no, I'm not talking about open houses), those flowers would stop being artificial.

To me, it just echoes deadness. Dead flowers. Dead works.

[_SUAS]

Oh wow a million dollars in Katrina aid, that's nothing when the church makes billions of dollars each year.

She doesn't get it, SUAS. And it's likely she never will. Whatever the leaders do or say is okay with her, because if she questions their actions, her faith takes a hit. They have to be right, or that means she has misplaced her trust. It's personal to her.

I can tell it's personal. She has tried to justify it but to no avail. I am surprised that so many Mormons are blind to the faults of their leaders and will condone what they do, no matter what they do just because they are the leaders.

The church is a business and nothing more. God left a long time ago.

[_harmony]

The church is a business and nothing more. God left a long time ago.

God lives in the hearts of the people who love him, whether they be Mormons or something else. The leaders need to study the spirituality of the true Saints and emulate it. Right now, they're studying the spirituality of true businessmen and it's not working real well. After all, our most prominent businessman puts porn on his tv's.

[_SUAS]

The church is a business and nothing more. God left a long time ago.

God lives in the hearts of the people who love him, whether they be Mormons or something else. The leaders need to study the spirituality of the true Saints and emulate it. Right now, they're studying the spirituality of true businessmen and it's not working real well. After all, our most prominent businessman puts porn on his tv's.

But Porn brings in a lot of money right? So the more money the more tithing, the more wealth the church builds and on and on. I am pretty sure that spirituality of true businessmen will be in the church for a long time to come.
Like I said God has left the building.

[_harmony]

The church is a business and nothing more. God left a long time ago.

God lives in the hearts of the people who love him, whether they be Mormons or something else. The leaders need to study the spirituality of the true Saints and emulate it. Right now, they're studying the spirituality of true businessmen and it's not working real well. After all, our most prominent businessman puts porn on his tv's.

But Porn brings in a lot of money right? So the more money the more tithing, the more wealth the church builds and on and on. I am pretty sure that spirituality of true businessmen will be in the church for a long time to come.

Unfortunately, I think you're right. We desperately need a new crop of leaders whose heads are not buried in the bottom line but who are crusaders for righting the wrongs that plague our world. Not gonna happen though.

Like I said God has left the building.

God has left the Church Office Building, indeed. But I think he's thriving quite well in at least a few ward buildings across the world. God is in the rank and file, not most of the leaders. The problem is, those of our leaders who really are leaders are the ones who are blazing new trails of commerce, while those of our leaders who really aren't businessmen are too weak to be effective spiritual leaders against the moneymaking trailblazers.

[_Inconceivable]

If there is a God, he will hold these cold blooded old farts accountable for every child that has starved to death in the world on their watch - by each tile, brick and the overstuffed chairs they sit in above everyone else but twice a year.

Remember, saving a starving child only costs .17/day. Thousands die each day. Shame on them.

This is very true, and is one of the few things that comforts me at night. They will be judged by what happened all over the world while they were busy counting their gold and buying more malls..

..They've certainly forgotten the sacrifices the members make in order to pay a full tithe.

Years ago, funds were handled differently. There weren't the lavish excesses of the leaders...
..Temples were nice, not lavish. We didn't buy shopping malls. Church farms were to feed the poor, not make a profit.

I imagine He will also ask you why you were so heartless and stupid to continue to support men spending His money on such worldly wants. Most Mormons have no idea what you have been made aware of here.

This also is true. Most Mormons have no idea about much of anything. They try hard to live a life of service and sacrifice, only to have their efforts negated by their leaders. Sad, but true.

My emphasis is that it is wrong reason to enable those you know are irresponsible. Members are accountable simply through contributory negligence.

Mormon leaders are a direct reflection of those who belong to their organization They are representative of the whole. Outsiders make little distinction between members and representatives.

Not meaning to jab and twist here Harmony, but you are a member.



by the way, good points, Infymus.

[_harmony]

My emphasis is that it is wrong reason to enable those you know are irresponsible. Members are accountable simply through contributory negligence.

Mormon leaders are a direct reflection of those who belong to their organization They are representative of the whole. Outsiders make little distinction between members and representatives.

Not meaning to jab and twist here Harmony, but you are a member.

Indeed I am, Inconceivable. I remain for reasons of my own.

However, I don't think you can extrapolate the leaders' lacks (and there are many lacks among our leaders) to the general rank and file of the church, nor can you make the rank and file responsible for the irresponsible decisions of the leaders. Were that the case, the citizens are responsible for the government's excesses; the stockholders of Enron were responsible for the excesses of their CEO; the Laurels are responsible for the thoughts of the Priests.

We can only be responsible for ourselves. And we cannot be responsible for what we don't know, when that knowledge is deliberately kept from us. The leaders bear that responsibility alone. The books are closed; we have no input. We don't know what we don't know.