Lamanite only a political designation?

[_Who Knows]

Your claim was specific to Lehi, so try again.

??? You really are getting more dense with each passing day.

Here's what you said:

Some experts in population genetics would argue that his {lehi's} descendants are probably on every continent by now.

I'm asking you to back that up. If you can't, just say so.

[_Who Knows]

I see a pretty big problem with Will's argument. As I understand him, he is saying that the bulk of "average members" were wrongheaded to believe that Lamanites=Native Americans, since folks in the Church were teaching that this "wasn't necessarily so" clear back in the 1920s and thereabouts. So, why's this problematic? For a couple of reasons. (1) The LDS Church operates according the the principle of Continuing Revelations. Thus, if any new teaching on this issue were to arise, it would Trump the old one. (2) The intro the to Book of Mormon, written by Elder McConkie circa 1980, pretty much blows apart these 1920s "teachings", both in terms of the "continuing revelation" principle, and in terms of doctrinal authority. "Average members", at least post-1980, certainly had good reason to think that Lamanites=Native Americans. I daresay that copies of the Book of Mormon had far wider circulation than these relatively obscure "teachings" from the '20s.

Sorry, Will, but you lose again.

How does Will's statement make Lamanites not equal Native Americans. As he said, if there was a Lehi he is probably an ancestor of everyone in the Americas. Most likely this is true of Laman and Nephi as well. In 2000 years every human alive will likely be my descendant if I ever have children. Yours too.

Well, Nehor's biting on the red herring.

Keep up dude. This is irrelevant to the question of whether Lehi was the principal ancestor of the NAs.

[_William Schryver]

There is an Article titled, “Who Are The Lamanites?," on one of the Web Site Pages Zarahemla City Limits . Here is a part of this Article where the author of this Article, quotes from LDS President Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th President of the LDS Church:

Spencer W. Kimball, for instance, made these very clear remarks:

"With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea, for in the middle of their history there were those who left America in ships of their making and went to the islands of the sea. [...] Now the Lamanites number about sixty million; they are in all of the states of America from Tierra del Fuego all the way up to Point Barrows, and they are in nearly all the islands of the sea from Hawaii south to southern New Zealand. The Church is deeply interested in all Lamanites because of these revelations and because of this great Book of Mormon, their history that was written on plates of gold and deposited in the hill. [...]

"The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people.

"[...] [Addressing the Lamanites of the Church] My brothers and sisters, you belong to a great race. Your father is Joseph who was sold into Egypt, the virtuous man who went to prison rather than yield to the seduction of a queen. Your father was Jacob, the father of twelve sons. You came through one of them. One of the great prophets of all times, your father, was Isaac. Another great prophet, your father, was Abraham, than whom there were no greater ones. Abraham was a great man who walked and talked with God. He is your father back those many generations. Be proud of him and know that you are of royal blood; with your royal blood you can achieve, rising to the top. ... You are of royal blood, the children of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Lehi." (Spencer W. Kimball, "Of Royal Blood," Ensign, July 1971)


* * * * * * * * * *

"Our Lamanite work has been going forward. The American Indians and others of the Lamanites, 60 million or more of them in South and Central America and Mexico and the islands, are accepting the gospel. [...] We are told that there are some thirty-six missions directed largely toward the Lamanite people. There are sixty stakes, with more being organized, which have large Lamanite memberships. [...] The Book of Mormon prophecy which promises 'nursing fathers and nursing mothers' for the Lamanites is being fulfilled. Some 10,000 or 15,000 Indian students are being taught in the seminaries and other instructional institutions of religion, and hundreds of the more mature students are receiving their degrees from Brigham Young University, probably the greatest benefactor of Lamanite students among all higher learning institutions... We are very proud of our Lamanites." (Spencer W. Kimball, "A Report and a Challenge," Ensign, Nov. 1976)


( http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/essays/M ... ites3.html )

I think we're all quite familiar with this quote, and with SWK's views on this topic. What exactly is the point you're trying to make here?


Lizzie:

I would tell you to kiss my ass, but you would enjoy it too much.

No. I am quite certain I would not. Even if you shaved first.



By the way, nice photo.

I'm sure you're a great wife and mother, and that you'll make a fine grandmother (if you aren't already). And I forget what you teach (you could remind me if you'd like) but I'll bet you're also a fine teacher.

[_Yoda]

..they are only a couple of testosterone molecules shy of being eunuchs.

Look who's talking!

;)

[_Chap]

Schryver

Oh, and by the way, my "sexist attributes" are not the exclusive province of the "Mormon Priesthood holder." I'm just a normal man. Well, probably a whole lot more manly than many of the "men" I see posting on this board. Most of them have been so utterly emasculated by our oppressive modern feminazi culture that they are only a couple of testosterone molecules shy of being eunuchs.

Yuk. This sort of display is just "false hair on the chest", and I suspect it has more to do with unresolved anxiety than masculinity.

[_Brackite]

I think we're all quite familiar with this quote, and with SWK's views on this topic. What exactly is the point you're trying to make here?

Hello,

If you are going to make the argument that nearly all American Indians are the descendants of Lehi through genetic mixing, than you have to accept and believe that every single Person in the world now, is a descendant of Cain and Ham through Genetic mixing. If all three of them were real People, Cain and Ham lived way before the time that Lehi was born. Every single Person in the world is a descendant of Cain and Ham, if Cain and Ham did indeed exist and lived.
Please Check Out and See:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/lofive ... 18938.html

[Anonymous]

Charlemagne was a king who lived around 400 A.D. He was also a prolific breeder, hence his prevalence in family trees that stretch back that far.

Specifically he was King of the Franks during the 700-800s AD. Spefically from 768 till 814 if I recall.

Edit: You probably corrected your statement at some point but I had French history class today...so I felt like posting this. :)

[_William Schryver]

Your claim was specific to Lehi, so try again.

??? You really are getting more dense with each passing day.

Here's what you said:

Some experts in population genetics would argue that his {lehi's} descendants are probably on every continent by now.

I'm asking you to back that up. If you can't, just say so.

I'm really sorry you just can't seem to grasp the concept.

It's quite basic, really. And there is no one familiar with population dynamics who would disagree with my statement.

Here's a little wikipedia entry that might serve as a starting point for your enlightenment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recen ... n_ancestor


And so, again:

If Lehi was a real man, he is almost certainly an ancestor of almost every Amerind alive today.

[_The Nehor]

Well, Nehor's biting on the red herring.

Keep up dude. This is irrelevant to the question of whether Lehi was the principal ancestor of the NAs.

Actually, I swallowed the red herring a long time ago. I don't think it was herring though. Tasted more like chicken. I didn't get it from Will. I don't particularly like Will.

Principal means most important or preeminent ancestor. Unless you want to argue that some DNA is more important than others Lehi's claim to preeminence must come from something else. Bringing the Gospel maybe?

[_antishock8]

Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and, look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.

Is this a rebuttal? Are you suggesting that the Lamanites would not be a remnant of the House of Israel in this case?

No. It's a statement of canon. Please provide a reference for your earlier supposition.