The Spaulding Theory........what most Mormons don't know

[_Roger]

Chris wrote:

There are also, by the way, some Rigdon/Cowdery authorship claims that Dan did include (when they appear in documents otherwise related to Joseph Smith).

I do not have my own copies and can only access EMD through my library (which apparently doesn't even have the complete set). So I'm sure you're correct about that.

[_Roger]

UD:

Must go -- much to do before my next round of eye surgery.

Hope all goes well!

R

[_CaliforniaKid]

Unk and Roger,

On Cowdery's role as spokesman prior to being supplanted by Rigdon, see D&C 28:3: "And thou [Oliver] shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church." At some of the early church meetings, such as the first Sunday after the Church's organization, Cowdery did the preaching. He also performed a great many of the early baptisms.

Best,

-Chris

[_Roger]

Chris:

Unk and Roger,

On Cowdery's role as spokesman prior to being supplanted by Rigdon, see D&C 28:3: "And thou [Oliver] shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church." At some of the early church meetings, such as the first Sunday after the Church's organization, Cowdery did the preaching. He also performed a great many of the early baptisms.

Best,

-Chris

That is true but when one merely thinks of how the term "spokesman" applies to Joseph Smtih and alleged "prophecy" in the Book of Mormon the obvious choice is Sidney Rigdon. Even the Mormons themselves agree with that in their official publications:

D&C 100:9–11 . Sidney Rigdon, a Spokesman for Joseph Smith

Sidney Rigdon, like Aaron in an earlier time (see Exodus 4:16 ), was appointed a spokesman for the Prophet Joseph Smith. Blessed with great gifts as an orator and student of scripture, Sidney was promised “power to be mighty in testimony” ( D&C 100:10 ). President George Q. Cannon said: “Those who knew Sidney Rigdon, know how wonderfully God inspired him, and with what wonderful eloquence he declared the word of God to the people. He was a mighty man in the hands of God, as a spokesman, as long as the prophet lived, or up to a short time before his death. Thus you see that even this which many might look upon as a small matter, was predicted about 1,700 years before the birth of the Savior [see 2 Nephi 3:18 ], and was quoted by Lehi 600 years before the same event, and about 2,400 years before its fulfillment, and was translated by the power of God, through his servant Joseph, as was predicted should be the case.” (In Journal of Discourses, 25:126.)

According to Doctrine and Covenants 100:11 , while Sidney was to be a spokesman for Joseph Smith, the Prophet was to “be a revelator” unto Sidney. In this way Brother Rigdon was to “know the certainty of all things pertaining to the things of my kingdom on the earth” ( v. 11 ). Sidney, because of his call to be a spokesman for the Prophet Joseph Smith, claimed to be guardian of the Church after Joseph’s death. To lead the Church, however, was not within the scope of his calling.

http://institute.LDS.org/manuals/doctri ... 91-100.asp

So... according to the Mormons themselves, Rigdon was actually predicted to be Joseph's spokesman in the Book of Mormon. Obviously if Smith created the Book of Mormon with no help from Rigdon, this can't possibly be true.

[_CaliforniaKid]

the obvious choice is Sidney Rigdon.

In retrospect, sure. But in 1830, Cowdery was Aaron-- tasked to "speak", "preach", and "declare faithfully the commandments and revelations" (D&C 28:3-4). When Joseph met Sidney in 1831, his primary task was to "write for him." Preaching was mentioned, but only "inasmuch as ye do not write" (35:20-23). That is, preaching was envisioned as a secondary task for Sidney. Ironic, then, that a short while later Sidney had fully taken over the role of "spokesman" of Joseph of Egypt's prophecy, and a subsidiary role of "scribe" was added to that prophecy for Cowdery to occupy. It seems Smith initially had their roles backwards.

So... according to the Mormons themselves, Rigdon was actually predicted to be Joseph's spokesman in the Book of Mormon. Obviously if Smith created the Book of Mormon with no help from Rigdon, this can't possibly be true.

I'm not a believer, so obviously I don't believe it is true. (Or perhaps, like Dan Vogel, I am a secret Mormon in the pay of the Church to discredit the Spalding theory... ) This is a case of a revelation being recontextualized to serve a different function than that for which it was originally intended. Joseph did it all the time. So did the biblical writers, and so do nearly all modern prophets with substantial followings. Kim Clement didn't really predict 9/11, for example. But some language in an earlier failed prophecy sounded conveniently 9/11ish, so why not cash it in for some good press?

By the way, I also ran across something that might interest you in Rough Stone Rolling. Bushman describes how Joseph often received his revelations "while he sat in council with his followers," in response to direct questions put to him on the spot. For example, on one occasion "John Murdock and several other elders asked Joseph to inquire of the Lord," and he immediately dictated a revelation. Pratt remembered that "each sentence was dictated slowly and very distinctly, and with a pause between each, sufficiently long for it to be recorded, by an ordinary writer, in long hand. [...] There was never any hesitation, reviewing, or reading back [... etc. etc.]" (cf. Bushman, p. 130). It does not seem that Joseph Smith had any opportunity to be coached by Sidney Rigdon in dictating such revelations.

Peace,

-Chris

[_Roger]

Chris:

In retrospect, sure. But in 1830, Cowdery was Aaron-- tasked to "speak", "preach", and "declare faithfully the commandments and revelations" (D&C 28:3-4).

Can you show any evidence that LDS leaders were attaching 2 Nephi 3 to Oliver Cowdery prior to attaching it to Rigdon?

When Joseph met Sidney in 1831, his primary task was to "write for him." Preaching was mentioned, but only "inasmuch as ye do not write" (35:20-23). That is, preaching was envisioned as a secondary task for Sidney.

First, given that the first project they worked on jointly (openly) was the expansion of Genesis, I don't see anything unusual about that. Second, I'm not convinced the concept of a "secondary" task was as clear to them as it is to you. In other words, your first task, Sidney, is to produce the enlargement of Genesis, but, in your free time you can also preach (since everyone already knows you're good at it).

I'm not a believer, so obviously I don't believe it is true. (Or perhaps, like Dan Vogel, I am a secret Mormon in the pay of the Church to discredit the Spalding theory... ) This is a case of a revelation being recontextualized to serve a different function than that for which it was originally intended. Joseph did it all the time. So did the biblical writers, and so do nearly all modern prophets with substantial followings. Kim Clement didn't really predict 9/11, for example. But some language in an earlier failed prophecy sounded conveniently 9/11ish, so why not cash it in for some good press?

Certainly possible, but then it would seem to be yet another coincidence that, without a conscious design by Smith (or with a conscious design but directed to another individual), the Book of Mormon would offer a scripture so readily adaptable to Rigdon as to be seen as *fulfilled* by him. For the Mormons, prophecy fulfilled. For you, coincidence that was recontextualized. For S/R par for the coarse.

By the way, I also ran across something that might interest you in Rough Stone Rolling. Bushman describes how Joseph often received his revelations "while he sat in council with his followers," in response to direct questions put to him on the spot. For example, on one occasion "John Murdock and several other elders asked Joseph to inquire of the Lord," and he immediately dictated a revelation. Pratt remembered that "each sentence was dictated slowly and very distinctly, and with a pause between each, sufficiently long for it to be recorded, by an ordinary writer, in long hand. [...] There was never any hesitation, reviewing, or reading back [... etc. etc.]" (cf. Bushman, p. 130). It does not seem that Joseph Smith had any opportunity to be coached by Sidney Rigdon in dictating such revelations.

I don't think Joseph Smith had to be coached by Rigdon on how to be a good con-man. He had plenty of experience at it growing up. It was the eloquence part he needed help with. I grant Smith's ability to slowly dictate alleged communications from God regarding a particular topic or question off the top of his head without aid from Rigdon. This is one of the areas where Rigdon underestimated Smith.

While not everyone could pull it off, it is not so terribly difficult that Smith's ability in this regard disproves any reliance on Rigdon as the Book of Mormon was coming together. Mormons are quick to point out Smith's deficiencies in writing skills.

On the other hand, if Smith did come up with the Book of Mormon off the top of his head, you have to hand it to him, in that he did an amazing job keeping track of all the details, characters, plots and sub-plots.

In the final analysis, if there were no compelling evidence & testimony for S/R, then I could see the concept of Smith having no need for Rigdon as a more compelling argument against conspiracy. As it is whether Smith needed Rigdon prior to 1830 depends on whether S/R is valid or not--not the other way around.