For Paul -- The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham

[_Paul Osborne]

I would hardly call it "yet another crushing defeat for Simon Belmont" since there have not been any others. Simply because one declares it does not make it so. Of course, this is not to say that I imagine that I am never wrong -- I am wrong all the time, and I have admitted when I have been wrong on multiple occasions here. I admitted up front, on this thread, that I did not claim to have much knowledge about the subject. I wanted to see what the responses were to one of Nibley's articles, and I did.

Well then, you do realize that you confess defeat by saying "there have not been any others". This implies you admit to a sole defeat -- this thread -- in particular: Facsimile No. 3. I can appreciate your willingness to show some honesty in this regard. This elevates your character in a positive way just a little bit. Even Dr. Scratch must admit that.

Now, I have a question for you Simon. It's a very simple question. Would you be surprised if the church removed the Facsimiles from the formal canon in the next edition of LDS scriptures?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Thank you in advance.

Paul O

[_Simon Belmont]

Well then, you do realize that you confess defeat by saying "there have not been any others". This implies you admit to a sole defeat -- this thread -- in particular: Facsimile No. 3. I can appreciate your willingness to show some honesty in this regard. This elevates your character in a positive way just a little bit. Even Dr. Scratch must admit that.

A sole defeat, yeah. We all have them. "Crushing defeat?" No. It was an inquiry thread, and I got several answers.

Now, I have a question for you Simon. It's a very simple question. Would you be surprised if the church removed the Facsimiles from the formal canon in the next edition of LDS scriptures?

I do not think I want to become part of your signature line.

I will say this: in the future, something is going to happen that vindicates the Facsimiles, and when that day comes I will be here posting about it.

[_Themis]

No... this is not the case.

It was humor, Themis; a joke. I admitted up front that I was a bit naïve about this subject.

Seriously, that site burns my eyes. Have you seen it? Why do all critics' websites suck in the design area? Take Metcalfe's "Mormon Scripture Studies" -- can you understand how to navigate that thing? I should start an entire thread about this.

I believe you don't like the site. It may not be pretty but it is informative, and yes you were attacking the messenger. Even in your last post you are attacking Brent again. Deal with the message. by the way Brent has more education then Will, and has spent more years studying Book of Abraham issues, so It is a double standard your applying to them.

[_Themis]

I will say this: in the future, something is going to happen that vindicates the Facsimiles, and when that day comes I will be here posting about it.

All this does is confirm your extreme bias, and that reasoned discussion is impossible. Now your not unique. Most apologists and some non-believers are in the same boat. I was for decades. Check out this line from Greg Smith's testimony:

No question or discovery has ever felt terribly threatening for long, because I learned that God was real and that Jesus was the divine savior.

You should read up on the spirit/emotion and Ray A's the debate is over threads.

[_Paul Osborne]

A sole defeat, yeah. We all have them. "Crushing defeat?" No. It was an inquiry thread, and I got several answers

Well, I guess I've had at least one sole defeat too in my lifetime. It's a hard thing to swallow. Too bad Joseph Smith isn't here on this board so I could hand him a crushing defeat and slap him down.

I do not think I want to become part of your signature line.

The fact that you are unwilling to answer a simple yes or no question out of fear of being quoted leads me to believe you are quite unsure of yourself at this time. In either case, my response would be difficult for you to swallow. I don't blame you too much for not answering. I understand the position you are in.

I will say this: in the future, something is going to happen that vindicates the Facsimiles, and when that day comes I will be here posting about it.

Are you dreaming? What on God's green earth will ever turn the mighty Anubis into a slave? Do you know nothing of the Egyptian religion? It's a fact that a man (Joseph Smith) pretended to interpret Egyptian and made some pretty stupid statements in an effort to deceive his following. He was caught red handed when the curtain lifted.

Have you ever wondered how it is that the church was able to hold on to the useless KEP documents and Kinderhook plates and yet lost the Abraham papyrus and the untranslated papyrus of the Book of Joseph? You think about that for a while.

Paul O

[_Simon Belmont]

by the way Brent has more education then Will, and has spent more years studying Book of Abraham issues, so It is a double standard your applying to them.

Brent is worshiped here, almost as if he is a God or something, but I have seen nothing come from him except a couple of critical books. I am sure he is a nice guy, and I don't have anything personal against him (I've never even met him). It just seems odd that everyone here lauds him so, and I cannot help but wonder why.

I mean, there is never mention of Richard Abanes, and he writes anti-Mormon books, too!

[_Themis]

Brent is worshiped here, almost as if he is a God or something, but I have seen nothing come from him except a couple of critical books. I am sure he is a nice guy, and I don't have anything personal against him (I've never even met him). It just seems odd that everyone here lauds him so, and I cannot help but wonder why.

I mean, there is never mention of Richard Abanes, and he writes anti-Mormon books, too!

This is just your extreme bias affecting how you see things. He is not worshiped, but has shown he is very knowledgeable about the subject. You could regain some credibility by starting to address the issue and not attacking the messenger. To many do it whether believers or not, although it is a standard tactic by apologist(I know some who are very good at avoiding this).

[_Doctor Scratch]

by the way Brent has more education then Will, and has spent more years studying Book of Abraham issues, so It is a double standard your applying to them.

Brent is worshiped here, almost as if he is a God or something, but I have seen nothing come from him except a couple of critical books. I am sure he is a nice guy, and I don't have anything personal against him (I've never even met him). It just seems odd that everyone here lauds him so, and I cannot help but wonder why.

I don't think it's so much that critics "laud" B. Metcalfe so much as that TBMs are terrified of him. One of the reasons FARMS exists is to specifically counter the arguments and evidence presented by Metcalfe. Even you yourself, Simon, tucked tail like a coward when Metcalfe suggested that the two of you engage in substantive conversation. So you are scared of him, too.

[_Simon Belmont]

I don't think it's so much that critics "laud" B. Metcalfe so much as that TBMs are terrified of him. One of the reasons FARMS exists is to specifically counter the arguments and evidence presented by Metcalfe. Even you yourself, Simon, tucked tail like a coward when Metcalfe suggested that the two of you engage in substantive conversation. So you are scared of him, too.

Actually, that is not what happened at all. After I attempted to engage in conversation, he called me a "troll" and stopped posting.

Honesty seems to be one of the virtues that you admire in other people, so I would please ask that you embody that virtue for yourself.

Here is what really took place, on the thread in question:

Brent,

I mean no disrespect to you as a person, and I do not mean to sound uncivil, but I am very curious because many people on both boards seem to be of the opinion you are or should be a major player in all of this.

If I may, just a few questions:
*What academic credentials do you possess that would make you uniquely qualified to publish anything on the KEP or the Book of Abraham, or to engage in any type of debate (written or public) on the subject?
*What is your interest in such things, since I am assuming you are not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints?

These are not meant to be loaded questions. I honestly am curious because your name is thrown around a great deal.

Hi Simon Belmont (if that is your real name), <insert smiley here>

I've addressed what you've asked ad nauseum throughout the years (feel free to use Bing or Google).

If you'd like to have a substantive conversation, please PM me with your real-world identity and a brief description of your interest in Mormon studies.

Thanks,

</brent>

I apologize, Brent, for not having followed you over the years. I was merely curious. When I Google you, it comes up with some football player of your same name, another link from some strange website called "the Salamander Society" describes you as "a rebellious Church Security Officer who love[s] delving into the Mysteries," and, of course your Mormon scripture studies website, which is actually confusing to navigate. Oh, and let's not forget the images, are any of these people you? [some random Google images returned when searched for "Brent Metcalfe"]

Hi Simon Belmont,

You should hone your searching skillz. Try searching on...

Brent Metcalfe Mormon

Again, if you'd like to have a substantive conversation, please PM me with your real-world identity and a brief description of your interest in Mormon studies.

My best,

</brent>

Hi Brent. I do not know what you mean by "substantive conversation." I was merely curious about why your name is thrown around everywhere, and if what Kevin Graham said is true, then it answered my questions. So, is this studly guy you?

Edit: removed photo.

Hi Simon B.,

I'm not interested in chatting with trolls. (emphasis mine)

My best,

</brent>

Wow, that was wholly uncalled for. How did I "troll" you? Trolling is the art of drawing a baited fishing line through the water, it is not directed at one fish. Are you really so skittish that another poster cannot ask sincere questions about you?

Was I being insincere? Rude? It was not my intention.

Hi S. B. (don't make me invert your initials), <insert smiley here>

You don't strike me as that dense. Your image gallery belies your feigned innocence—folks on this forum aren't that naïve.

So let me reiterate for the last time...

If you'd like to have a substantive conversation, please PM me with your real-world identity and a brief description of your interest in Mormon studies.

Capiche?

My best,

</brent>

No offense, but I don't. I was just curious about your background, since your name comes up so often on both of these forums. It might be a good idea, however, to refrain from labeling other posters as trolls so quickly.

Edit: I look forward to an edited version of Kevin Graham's biography of you.

And that, as they say, was that.

Brent chickened out, "tucked tail" etc. I did not.

Brent=0
Simon=1

[_Simon Belmont]

He is not worshiped, but has shown he is very knowledgeable about the subject.

About what subject?