Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

[_Drifting]

I guess the ward where this little girl was allegedly abused must have been full of noise...

We live in a noisy, contentious world, where it is possible to be viewing or listening to information, music, or even pure nonsense virtually every waking hour. If we want to have the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, we must find time to slow down, ponder, pray, and live so we are worthy to receive and act upon His promptings. We will avoid major mistakes if we heed His warnings. It is our privilege as members to receive light and knowledge from Him even to the perfect day. (Q.L.Cook Apostle, Ensign May 2010)

[_Jonah]

I don't know if the holy ghost can prevent evil from happening when people chose to act in an evil way. Or if they ignore the prompting of the holy ghost. What can he do? Only people can prevent evil from happening by not choosing to do evil.

Such is free will.

We are FIVE PAGES into this thread and you haven't figured out that the discussion is NOT about the holy ghost prompting the evil doer not to do evil?? Really??

Here is a nice, warm, fuzzy, faith promoting story that an LDS leader told demonstrating that the holy ghost CAN intercede with a third party to avoid harm or death -

“One of my earliest childhood recollections is of riding a horse through an apple orchard. The horse was tame and well broken, and I felt at home in the saddle. But one day something frightened my mount, and he bolted through the orchard. I was swept from the saddle by the overhanging limbs, and one leg slipped down through the stirrup.”

I desperately hung to an almost broken leather strap that a cowboy uses to tie a [rope] to his saddle. My weight should have broken the strap, but somehow it held for the moment. Another lunge or two of the stampeding horse would have broken the strap or wrenched it from my hands and left me to be dragged to injury or death with my foot entangled in the stirrup.

Suddenly the horse stopped, and I became aware that someone was holding the bridle tightly and attempting to calm the quivering animal. Almost immediately I was snatched up into the arms of my father. What had happened? What had brought my father to my rescue in the split second before I slipped beneath the hoofs of my panic-driven horse?

My father had been sitting in the house reading the newspaper when the Spirit [the Holy Ghost] whispered to him, ‘Run out into the orchard!’ Without a moment’s hesitation, not waiting to learn why or for what reason, my father ran. Finding himself in the orchard without knowing why he was there, he saw the galloping horse and thought, I must stop this horse. He did so and found me. And that is how I was saved from serious injury or possible death” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Hearken to the Spirit,” Friend, Sept. 1972, p. 10).

I agree with you that a person with evil in their heart will most likely not listen to any "promptings" from the holy ghost. But to answer your question "What can he (holy ghost) do?", well...if the above story is true, the holy ghost CAN prompt OTHERS to intercede to prevent harm. So the question is, Why didn't he prompt OTHERS to step in and prevent a rape/molestation? Or even better yet, why didn't the holy ghost touch the Bishop with his mythical "Spirit of Discernment" when issuing the calling in the first place?

There are basically two answers - There is no holy spook in the first place (my belief)...OR...He was on vacation...again...(probably a stance that TBM's should take and run with).

[_why me]

Why Me,

Can you explain how the sexualisation of children for profit prevents the Holy Ghost from prompting someone (anyone) to go and stop something bad happening to a nine year old girl whilst attending her Church classes?

You will have to ask the Holy Ghost. I don't think that the holy ghost prevents evil things from happening. Evil happens because people choose evil. What does it have to do with the holy ghost?

Sure it would be nice if the holy ghost or god would intervene to prevent all evil from happening or all car accidents etc but...it doesn't work that way. Maybe the protestants can explain it this way:

Abused freedom

Can God stop bad things from happening? Yes, he can. So why doesn't he? Consider this: Bad things happen because people are free to do bad things.

Sometimes, people are careless, inconsiderate or selfish, which results in creating situations and circumstances that can and usually do bring harm to others. Sometimes they are lazy, greedy or cowardly, and because of it, people get hurt. Sometimes, people are even hateful, wicked and cruel.

What would happen if God were to stop all consequences of human choices and actions? For one thing, it would make human choices and actions meaningless. If God were to always stop us before we do bad things, then he would also be taking away our freedom to make our own choices. If God removed our freedom to think for ourselves and make our own choices, then there would be no possibility for us humans of a freely chosen love relationship with God.

God gave humans freedom, real freedom—a freedom upheld by and in God's own freedom of course, not a freedom independent of God (there is no such thing as freedom totally independent of God). But in Adam, humans have abused that freedom by choosing against God, which is choosing against themselves, because only in God are humans able to be what they really are.

That rebellion has rendered humanity less than it was created to be—completely in the dark about who God is and its utter dependence on him. In the midst of this blindness, humans no longer have the communion with God that Adam and Eve once enjoyed. Instead, the best they can do is grope for God in the dark in the hope that they might find him (Acts 17:27).

http://www.gci.org/spiritual/trials/suffergod

[_Drifting]

My father had been sitting in the house reading the newspaper when the Spirit [the Holy Ghost] whispered to him, ‘Run out into the orchard!’ Without a moment’s hesitation, not waiting to learn why or for what reason, my father ran. Finding himself in the orchard without knowing why he was there, he saw the galloping horse and thought, I must stop this horse. He did so and found me. And that is how I was saved from serious injury or possible death” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Hearken to the Spirit,” Friend, Sept. 1972, p. 10).

I agree with you that a person with evil in their heart will most likely not listen to any "promptings" from the holy ghost. But to answer your question "What can he (holy ghost) do?", well...if the above story is true, the holy ghost CAN prompt OTHERS to intercede to prevent harm. So the question is, Why didn't he prompt OTHERS to step in and prevent a rape/molestation? Or even better yet, why didn't the holy ghost touch the Bishop with his mythical "Spirit of Discernment" when issuing the calling in the first place?

There are basically two answers - There is no holy spook in the first place (my belief)...OR...He was on vacation...again...(probably a stance that TBM's should take and run with).

This is exactly the point Jonah.

Mormonism preaches that the Holy Ghost will intercede and guide you and direct you and prompt you. There are countless stories told during Fast & Testimony meeting, Sacrament meeting and in the words of General Authorites where the Holy Ghost has been directly and materially involved in some faith promoting way.

Mormonism does actively believe the Holy Ghost can and will intercede (as your quote from Bruce R M. shows).

The question for this thread and for believing Mormons to answer is WHY HE CHOSE NOT TO INTERCEDE IN THIS CASE?

For some reason Why Me is desperately trying (without any supporting posters from either side of the fence) to deflect criticism of the Holy Ghost belief and direct the blame towards society.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking about the Bishop in this case and how he might be feeling. If I were in his shoes (and I am grateful that I'm not) I think I would be asking some or all of the following questions:
1. Was I not righteous enough to hear the promptings of the Holy Ghost when I appointed this guy?
2. Should I stand down from being Bishop?
3. Why did the Holy Ghost not help me?
4. Why did nobody notice what was going on?
5. Why did God allow me to make this mistake?

I was also thinking that perhaps the Church is legally culpable in a case like this. On grounds of failing to provide a duty of care.
Lawyers - is there a case (criminal or civil?) to answer here and could the Church (or the Bishop) be sued?
I believe sueing the Church is the only way to make the organization sit up, take notice and make changes to prevent this happening again.

[_Yoda]

Drifting--

I would think that there is definitely a case that could be made. People sue large companies for tripping outside their building. This situation is much worse. I would love to have Sock Puppet or Darth weigh in on this from a professional perspective.

Why Me:

From a spiritual standpoint, one huge conflict with your quote and what the LDS believe is the following:

But in Adam, humans have abused that freedom by choosing against God, which is choosing against themselves, because only in God are humans able to be what they really are.

That rebellion has rendered humanity less than it was created to be—completely in the dark about who God is and its utter dependence on him. In the midst of this blindness, humans no longer have the communion with God that Adam and Eve once enjoyed. Instead, the best they can do is grope for God in the dark in the hope that they might find him (Acts 17:27).

The fact that we as humans are groping in the dark due to Adam's fall runs in direct conflict with our second Article of Faith:

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

[_Yoda]

I was thinking about the Bishop in this case and how he might be feeling. If I were in his shoes (and I am grateful that I'm not) I think I would be asking some or all of the following questions:
1. Was I not righteous enough to hear the promptings of the Holy Ghost when I appointed this guy?
2. Should I stand down from being Bishop?
3. Why did the Holy Ghost not help me?
4. Why did nobody notice what was going on?
5. Why did God allow me to make this mistake?

Drifting,

Two questions that I would have asked had I been Bishop is:

1. What can I do to help make things right with this little girl and the family that is suffering due to this tragedy?

2. How can we, as a ward, and how can specifically, I, as a Bishop and father of that ward, prevent this type of incident from happening again?

I think that these are the questions that we, as members of the LDS Church should be focussed on.

[_Drifting]

I was thinking about the Bishop in this case and how he might be feeling. If I were in his shoes (and I am grateful that I'm not) I think I would be asking some or all of the following questions:
1. Was I not righteous enough to hear the promptings of the Holy Ghost when I appointed this guy?
2. Should I stand down from being Bishop?
3. Why did the Holy Ghost not help me?
4. Why did nobody notice what was going on?
5. Why did God allow me to make this mistake?

Drifting,

Two questions that I would have asked had I been Bishop is:

1. What can I do to help make things right with this little girl and the family that is suffering due to this tragedy?

2. How can we, as a ward, and how can specifically, I, as a Bishop and father of that ward, prevent this type of incident from happening again?

I think that these are the questions that we, as members of the LDS Church should be focussed on.

I like your questions.
I also like the way you can replace the word 'Bishop' with 'Prophet' and the word 'Ward' with 'Church'.

[_Yoda]

Yes, these questions can be looked at in the broader spectrum.

However, I think that these solutions can be implemented on the local level.

I think that it is beneficial to discuss these types of solutions in groups like this and take suggestions back to our home ward bishops. This is OUR Church. We have the power, and I think responsibility to set things up locally so that our children can be safe.

[_Chap]

Looking back on this thread, I am pleased to see that yet again The Onion gets it pretty well right, though with reference to a different case of sexual abuse:


Nation's 10-Year-Old Boys: 'If You See Someone Raping Us, Please Call The Police' 'Doesn't Matter Who, Doesn't Matter Where,' Children Say.

sample:

"So, to reiterate: If you ever see a 10-year-old boy being raped—by anyone, at any time, even if it's a Sunday afternoon—it is very, very important that you go directly to the police and clearly explain what you saw, remembering to identify the person who was doing the raping," Pearson continued.

According to Pearson, even if one merely suspects he or she has seen a 10-year-old boy being raped, but is not absolutely certain, it is still a good idea to play it safe and allow police investigators to sort out the situation.

"Wouldn't you be left with egg on your face if that little boy was actually being raped and you didn't tell the police!" said Pearson, drawing a big laugh from the gathered crowd.

The nation's 10-year-olds unanimously echoed Pearson's sentiments, imploring people to contact police not only when they see prepubescent boys being raped, but, in fact, when they see anyone at all being raped, in any context.

"Certainly, if you were to see me being raped, I would want you to call the police—I'm a 10-year-old boy who couldn't possibly give my consent, or even fully grasp the horror of what was happening to me," Sioux Falls, SD resident Nick Kealey, 10, said between games of Mario Kart DS. "What's really at issue here is the act of rape itself. So, yes, if you see a 10-year-old boy like me being raped, by all means, call the police. But don't just walk on by if you see, say, a teenage girl being raped in a locker room, or even a full-grown man being raped in an alleyway. These are also situations in which you should definitely call the police, and right away."

"Seeing any person get raped at any time, even just once, is more than enough reason to contact the police," Kealey added. "I can't stress that enough."

Following Saturday's announcement, police stations around the country reported a flood of incoming phone calls.

[_Drifting]

I think that it is beneficial to discuss these types of solutions in groups like this and take suggestions back to our home ward bishops. This is OUR Church. We have the power, and I think responsibility to set things up locally so that our children can be safe.

Liz, I agree 100%. but how many members/wards do you think feel as empowered to act as you do? I would guess at not very many. In my experience the majority of members and local leaders are sheep like. They are conditioned to do as they are told, to follow the Prophet (Relief Society even have a weekly group chant about this), comply with the handbook, tick the boxes etc. I think that's one of the reasons things like this tragedy occur. The Church does not encourage questioning, challenging, development of practice and procedure. Rather it promotes trust in and compliance to the Priesthood and the Holy Ghost for direction and decision making.

The ones that buck the trend by challenging and questioning are usually seen as trouble makers and are dealt with accordingly.