thews wrote:So let me get this straight... you acknowledge Joseph Smith used seer stones. You acknowledge the Nephite spectacles were taken back as punishment (per D&C 10). At what point did Joseph Smith obtain the supposed Urim and Thummim?
I've already answered this. Look at the HC quote I posted. That is Joseph Smith answering you right there.
After I had obtained the above revelation [Section 3], both the plates and the Urim and Thummim were taken from me again; but in a few days they were returned to me, when I inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said thus unto me: [Section 10, follows.] (Joseph Smith, HC 1:23)
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
thews wrote:So let me get this straight... you acknowledge Joseph Smith used seer stones. You acknowledge the Nephite spectacles were taken back as punishment (per D&C 10). At what point did Joseph Smith obtain the supposed Urim and Thummim?
I've already answered this. Look at the HC quote I posted. That is Joseph Smith answering you right there.
After I had obtained the above revelation [Section 3], both the plates and the Urim and Thummim were taken from me again; but in a few days they were returned to me, when I inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said thus unto me: [Section 10, follows.] (Joseph Smith, HC 1:23)
By reading your response, what you're claiming is the Nephite spectacles were supposedly given back along with the plates. Using this one data point and ignoring all other witness accounts, why then did Joseph Smith use seer stones? Why isn't there one account of him using the supposed Nephite spectacles? By the way, do you have dates for your above quotes with a reference so I can validate them?
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
After I had obtained the above revelation [Section 3], both the plates and the Urim and Thummim were taken from me again; but in a few days they were returned to me, when I inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said thus unto me: [Section 10, follows.] (Joseph Smith, HC 1:23)
By reading your response, what you're claiming is the Nephite spectacles were supposedly given back along with the plates. Using this one data point and ignoring all other witness accounts, why then did Joseph Smith use seer stones? Why isn't there one account of him using the supposed Nephite spectacles? By the way, do you have dates for your above quotes with a reference so I can validate them?
Thews, it's the history of the church. Read it sometime. It is Joseph Smith's own account of what happened. If you don't want to believe him, that is your prerogative but then don't bring up D&C 10 either then. I'm really done on this topic. We are just talking in circles now.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:After I had obtained the above revelation [Section 3], both the plates and the Urim and Thummim were taken from me again; but in a few days they were returned to me, when I inquired of the Lord, and the Lord said thus unto me: [Section 10, follows.] (Joseph Smith, HC 1:23)
By reading your response, what you're claiming is the Nephite spectacles were supposedly given back along with the plates. Using this one data point and ignoring all other witness accounts, why then did Joseph Smith use seer stones? Why isn't there one account of him using the supposed Nephite spectacles? By the way, do you have dates for your above quotes with a reference so I can validate them?
Tobin wrote:Thews, it's the history of the church. Read it sometime. It is Joseph Smith's own account of what happened. If you don't want to believe him, that is your prerogative but then don't bring up D&C 10 either then. I'm really done on this topic. We are just talking in circles now.
Why can't you link me to your source and provide a date? You act like it's not important. We know that the term "Urim and Thummim" was not used until three years after the Book of Mormon was published, so the dates of your quotes is important. If you wish to flee the discussion I understand, and that's because, based on the historical data, what you're calling Joseph Smith's seer stones are in fact also the "Urim and Thummim" followed by the claim that God supposedly gave them back with the gold plates, making them the Nephite spectacles, which doesn't make sense. As I stated in the beginning of this discussion, you can't give me a rational answer, which is why you have not once posted a link to your source. Why can't you just be intellectually honest?
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
thews wrote:Why can't you link me to your source and provide a date? You act like it's not important. We know that the term "Urim and Thummim" was not used until three years after the Book of Mormon was published, so the dates of your quotes is important. If you wish to flee the discussion I understand, and that's because, based on the historical data, what you're calling Joseph Smith's seer stones are in fact also the "Urim and Thummim" followed by the claim that God supposedly gave them back with the gold plates, making them the Nephite spectacles, which doesn't make sense. As I stated in the beginning of this discussion, you can't give me a rational answer, which is why you have not once posted a link to your source. Why can't you just be intellectually honest?
Thews, you can't be serious!?! You don't even have the History of the Church. Why are you even bothering pretending to know anything about this then? It's referenced right in D&C 10 by the way. Where do you think the quote comes from? Honestly, don't accuse me of being intellectualy dishonest when you can't be bothered with even reading related reference material.
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, in the summer of 1828 (see History of the Church, 1:20–23).
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
After reading this thread and much on this site... I completely understand that it isn't just the Jews who missed the mark.
Jacob 4:14
14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.
Sandra wrote:After reading this thread and much on this site... I completely understand that it isn't just the Jews who missed the mark.
Jacob 4:14
14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.
That is an anti-Semitic scripture.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Tobin wrote:Thews, it's the history of the church. Read it sometime. It is Joseph Smith's own account of what happened.
BHR wrote it, based mostly from journals of others. Joseph Smith personally left little, from his own hand. And yes, I own the set and have read every volume, cover to cover.
Why do you suppose today's lay member has basically never heard of BHR, nor have/read a copy of HC?
Sandra wrote:After reading this thread and much on this site... I completely understand that it isn't just the Jews who missed the mark.
Jacob 4:14
14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.
That is an anti-Semitic scripture.
No, it is a statement of truth about a people who were sinful... are you afraid of having truth spoken about certain people? That would be anti -spiritual truth--- or spiritual paranoia.