Let me say it more clearly then, we have the one CREDIBLE statement by her mother (she would know after all) but does not make any specifics clear. Don't quote Stake President Angust Cannon to me. That is ridiculous hearsay and has no credibility what-so-ever. You might as well quote Buffalo to me and hold that up as proof.
It's specific enough. You show no evidence for your claims, and we have some for claims he did have sex with at least one. I also show BY didn't have a problem with it. It really is just a pathetic apologetic that even many apologists reject.
I don't see why a SP's recollections shouldn't be deemed as credible? He's active. He has no axe to grind?
I thought Sylvia's deathbed confession to her daughter is quite clear?
Tobin, what do you think of the theory that Joseph and Brigham were influenced by Jacob Cochran and the Cochranite movement. There are some incredibly interesting parallels don't you think?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Mary wrote:I don't see why a SP's recollections shouldn't be deemed as credible? He's active. He has no axe to grind?
I thought Sylvia's deathbed confession to her daughter is quite clear?
Tobin, what do you think of the theory that Joseph and Brigham were influenced by Jacob Cochran and the Cochranite movement. There are some incredibly interesting parallels don't you think?
Sylvia's deathbed confession isn't clear. It is inline with what we already know that it was a dynastic sealing. Remember those things weren't discussed at that time and reading things into one statement like that is unsupportable without any proof.
As far as the Cachranite movement, I agree that it is interesting but not surprsing since there was a lot of religious activity and ideas floating around at the time. I think stating Mormonism (and the polygamist period) is unique is fallacious. Apologists often make that mistake and by doing that they set themselves up to stumble badly. Even the first vision story isn't unique to that period.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Themis wrote: He is talking about the ones who already had a husband.
It makes no sense for Sylvia Sessions Lyon Smith Kimball Clark (!) to confess to her daughter on her deathbed that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith if she didn't have a good reason.
To me, that is evidence of a sexual relationship even if Josephine turns out 'not' to be Joseph's daughter.
Sylvia obviously thought she was..
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Themis wrote: He is talking about the ones who already had a husband.
It makes no sense for Sylvia Sessions Lyon Smith Kimball Clark (!) to confess to her daughter on her deathbed that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith if she didn't have a good reason.
To me, that is evidence of a sexual relationship even if Josephine turns out 'not' to be Joseph's daughter.
Sylvia obviously thought she was..
Maybe Sylvia made out with Joseph Smith in a hot tub, and she believed the myth that sperm can survive in hot water and swim to the woman and make her pregnant. I'm not sure how that helps Joseph Smith. He still made out with another man's wife in a hot tub while Emma was at home ironing his shirts.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
It is fairly clear, and it makes the most sense. This is certainly something a mother might want a daughter to know who her father is. Why tell just her this.
It is inline with what we already know that it was a dynastic sealing.
What is it we already know? Show your evidence. I have not seen any to suggest these marriages were just dynastic sealings.
Themis wrote: He is talking about the ones who already had a husband.
It makes no sense for Sylvia Sessions Lyon Smith Kimball Clark (!) to confess to her daughter on her deathbed that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith if she didn't have a good reason.
To me, that is evidence of a sexual relationship even if Josephine turns out 'not' to be Joseph's daughter.
Sylvia obviously thought she was..
You are correct. The statement is clear enough to convince many apologists. We see no evidence for dynastic sealings, and the point of marriage and polygamy is to have children. BY did with Zina.
Mary wrote: It makes no sense for Sylvia Sessions Lyon Smith Kimball Clark (!) to confess to her daughter on her deathbed that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith if she didn't have a good reason.
To me, that is evidence of a sexual relationship even if Josephine turns out 'not' to be Joseph's daughter.
Sylvia obviously thought she was..
Isn't it interesting just how critics take this testimony seriously but not the deathbed testimony of the witnesses. Those deathbed testimonies they just wave their hand and dismiss them.
And are you an example of this? yes or no?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
