Apostasy's A Bummer

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_Buffalo
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Buffalo »

EAllusion wrote:Since when is DCP a universalist? I'd like to see some evidence of that. The Book of Mormon condemns universalism - a serious problem I hear for ancient Mayans and 19th century protestants alike. Later developments in LDS eschatology provide for a limited kind of universalism that precludes universalism proper.


That's what I recall from his MS interview - his conviction that good people of all walks of life - Muslims, Christians, even Atheists - will find a way into the CK.

It's actually a rather nice viewpoint, and says something good about his character.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_EAllusion
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _EAllusion »

Buffalo wrote:That's what I recall from his MS interview - his conviction that good people of all walks of life - Muslims, Christians, even Atheists - will find a way into the CK.


That's pretty standard LDS theology. That's different from universalism.
_Buffalo
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Buffalo »

EAllusion wrote:
Buffalo wrote:That's what I recall from his MS interview - his conviction that good people of all walks of life - Muslims, Christians, even Atheists - will find a way into the CK.


That's pretty standard LDS theology. That's different from universalism.


No, it's not. He wasn't saying they'd be converted to Mormonism in the spirit world. Just that they would make it in to the CK.

If I recall correctly
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:
He said Don recognizes that we who have left have legitimate issues, even if he doesn't share our concerns.


This is the very same logic that creates "white Hispanics" for self justification purposes. If the Church's teachings and doctrines are legitimate, then how could apostates have legitimacy issues with that which is, by definition, legitimate?

If Don believes the entirety of official church doctrine to be legitimate, how could he believe, at the same time, that there are legitimate reasons to leave?

I would think it takes some maturity to recognize that people with whom you disagree might actually have legitimate reasons for their beliefs.


If I thought they were legitimate, then I wouldn't disagree with them, John.


This illustrates your intellectually immaturity very clearly.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Droopy
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Droopy »

You see, the plan of salvation is seriously flawed.
If you sign up to it from an early age it costs you a shed load of cash,


The alternative Great and Spacious Building plan costs far, far more, and then renigs on all its promises in the end. Unlike the plan of salvation, its a scam that bilks you out of, not only real happiness in this life, but all you potential for happiness in the next.

serious mental and social difficulties,


Yes, this is true (under various conditions and during various seasons of life). For one, Babylon (the surrounding secular culture and its values/beliefs) are in irreconcilable conflict with Zion and Zion principles. This sets up, as it always has, hostility between the two and a struggle of and for influence over the mind and heart of each individual. The worst of that struggle, however, occurs when we cannot decide between the two and feel ourselves torn and wrenched between the church of Christ and the great and spacious building. That, however, is as much self inflicted as a natural aspect of the very presence of the gospel in the world.

impinges on your social life and leisure time,


1. "The natural man is an enemy to God..."
2. I see no reason why or how living the gospel impinges on either.
3. Life is not a party, but a very serious business in which leisure is only one aspect. A disciple is one who is under a discipline - a coarse of life in which some things must be acquired and some things dropped.

gives you a full time job on top of your full time job,


Yes, discipleship requires sacrifice and "losing yourself" in the service of others. Consider the gospel guilty here.

gives you a plethora of opportunities to screw up and not make it back to heaven


Precisely what I have always perceived was the fundamental basis of the popular support of Lucifer's alternate plan in the preexistence, and the core of the main manifestation of the remnant of that plan and "war in Heaven" on earth, socialism (in its various forms).

The plan of salvation is deeply flawed because it introduces risk, free will, and the possibility of alternative outcomes to human existence. The solution? Give up salvation for security.

and means that you have to leave your God given gifts of thought, reasoning, common sense and logic at the door.


The only people who actually believe this to be true are, I've long found, are those who never understood or had acquired these attributes in the first place, or who worship them as ultimate aspects of their own worship of humankind - humanism.

On the other hand, avoid Mormonism your whole life and sign up after you're dead.


You can't do that, if you're aware that is what you're doing.

How on earth can the Plan of Salvation be viable when the easiest way to gain exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom is to only sign up for it after you are dead?


You clearly have no substantive understanding of LDS doctrine at all, but its never too late to begin the process of education.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Buffalo
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:
Yes, discipleship requires sacrifice and "losing yourself" in the service of others. Consider the gospel guilty here.


Why anyone would think this was a good thing is a mystery to me.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Darth J
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Darth J »

Fun idea to pass the time while you're browsing this thread!

Look for clues scattered throughout his posts and see if you can come up with a way to distinguish Droopy's mentality from that of:

(a) a member of the Mutaween in Saudi Arabia;
(b) a minister in Salem, Massachusetts circa 1692;
(c) a tribal shaman in Polynesia warning people about the wrath of the volcano god;
(d) a fire-and-brimstone Baptist preacher in the American south.

*Bonus question*

Explain, in your own words, how Droopy proves that the LDS Church is not a cult.
_Droopy
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Droopy »

Buffalo wrote:
Droopy wrote:
Yes, discipleship requires sacrifice and "losing yourself" in the service of others. Consider the gospel guilty here.


Why anyone would think this was a good thing is a mystery to me.



To a Nietzschean immoralist, it is a mystery, and a deep one at that.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Buffalo
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Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:

To a Nietzschean immoralist, it is a mystery, and a deep one at that.


One doesn't have to be a "Nietzschean immoralist" to not want to lose oneself. What a horrible prospect. Perhaps the desire to lose oneself comes from loathing of the self?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Shulem
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Re: Apostasy's A Bummer

Post by _Shulem »

Darth J wrote:Explain, in your own words, how Droopy proves that the LDS Church is not a cult.


No can do. Droopy is a fine example of a crazed Mormon spreading the cult. Let his Mormon light shine because it reduces positive credibility about the church in the eyes of nonmembers. Let Droopy keep barking like a crazy dog. He's helping us out! In a way, he's an anti-Mormon because he does more to hurt his church than help it.

Thank you Droopy!

Paul O
PS. Just think how much more crazier Droopy is going to be after he officially apostatizes from the church and joins in actively speaking against the church. At that point he will probably make the anti-Mormons look like we have a weaker position because he will be such a nutcase. It's better that Droopy stay in the church and keep barking as he is.
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