Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_Tobin]

Oh, and Tobin,

In case my point about George Q. Cannon was not clear enough, here's something else he wrote:

George Q. Cannon: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Prophet

Many other things did the Prophet see and hear. He beheld that all children who died before reaching years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of our God. A holy comfort this, which takes the place of all the black threats concerning infantile damnation.

Now what was it you were saying? "Stop pretending you understand a thing about Mormonism and spouting your non-sense"?

Again, Darth J, you are making the same mistake over and over again (and spouting the same non-sense as usual). Those who are innocent can return to the CK since they are without sin (as spirits). That's where they came from. And of course, they are saved by the Lord which literally means to be preserved. All of us are ultimately saved (preserved) as well. However, to obtain a degree of glory, one must be tested and tried of the Lord. We must choose to follow the Lord and do what he commands. To obtain the Celestial glory, we must choose to be baptized, endowed, resurrected, and do all things the Lord asks of us. There are no exceptions. Even Christ himself has done so.

[_Cylon]

Remind me never to get into a quote-war with Darth J. Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side!

For the record, Tobin, I firmly support your right to teach doctrine which conflicts with the LDS church's teachings, whether it be true or false doctrine, and encourage you to continue to do so.

[_Darth J]

Tobin:

You are basing your conclusions on quote-mining past LDS leaders. Every single one of the leaders you cited said that children who die before the age of accountability automatically are saved in the Celestial Kingdom. You may as well tell me about Anubis weighing a person's heart against a feather as your personal interpretation of Mormonism. It does not matter. What matters is that the sources on which you rely for your conclusion universally contradict your assertions.

Stop pretending that you know anything about Mormonism. Just admit that you are babbling about Tobinism, a cottage religion whose utter luck of coherency suggests you are making it up as you go.

[_Themis]

Again, Darth J, you are making the same mistake over and over again (and spouting the same non-sense as usual). Those who are innocent can return to the CK since they are without sin (as spirits). That's where they came from. And of course, they are saved by the Lord which literally means to be preserved. All of us are ultimately saved (preserved) as well. However, to obtain a degree of glory, one must be tested and tried of the Lord. We must choose to follow the Lord and do what he commands. To obtain the Celestial glory, we must choose to be baptized, endowed, resurrected, and do all things the Lord asks of us. There are no exceptions. Even Christ himself has done so.

You are just spouting what you believe again, not what Joesph and the church teach about it. There is a difference even though everyone knows you will not admit it. We can't be any clearer about what the church and Joseph taught without having them appear.

[_Tchild]

To obtain the Celestial glory, we must choose to be baptized, endowed, resurrected, and do all things the Lord asks of us. There are no exceptions. Even Christ himself has done so.

If that were true, children would be baptized at birth, instead of at age eight...when they reach the age of accountability. There cannot be baptism prior, because there is no sin nor accountability.

Resurrection happens to all and there is no choice in the matter. Unless you consider the "choice" to be the one that Mormon mythology claims happened in the mythological pre-existance?

This is basic stuff man. Basic.

[_Darth J]

By a show of hands, who thinks Tobin understands that the issue is what the LDS Church teaches, not whether its teachings are "true"?

[_Tchild]

In fairness to Tobin, if it can be shown that the LDS church performs proxy baptisms for the dead for children eight years and younger, then he would have a good point.

Anybody know or can show proof one way or the other?

[_Yoda]

In fairness to Tobin, if it can be shown that the LDS church performs proxy baptisms for the dead for children eight years and younger, then he would have a good point.

Anybody know or can show proof one way or the other?

Baptisms for the dead are only performed for people 8 years and older. Before you reach the age of accountabillity (age 8), you are considered sinless before the Lord, and no baptism is required.

[_Cylon]

By a show of hands, who thinks Tobin understands that the issue is what the LDS Church teaches, not whether its teachings are "true"?

*Crickets*

[_Tobin]

In fairness to Tobin, if it can be shown that the LDS church performs proxy baptisms for the dead for children eight years and younger, then he would have a good point.

Anybody know or can show proof one way or the other?

Baptisms for the dead are only performed for people 8 years and older. Before you reach the age of accountabillity (age 8), you are considered sinless before the Lord, and no baptism is required.

The reason for that is during the Millenium, those who were not able to choose will be given the choice. They will be raised, taught, tested, and tried by the Lord. They will have the opportunity to be baptized, endowed, sealed and married and have all the opportunities that we have to follow and do as the Lord ask. Just as we do now. The promises of the Lord concerning children is that all will have the sames opportunities that we have.

God is a just God. A God of order and fairness. It is a gross perversion of the gospel to take the justice and fairness of God and teach this non-sense that there is a way to be exalted other than choosing and following the Lord and doing as he asks. This is not what the Lord is talking about and not part of the gospel.