Only one female speaker at General Conference this weekend

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_Lemmie
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Lemmie »

MsJack wrote:
zerinus wrote:You want to stand on the side of no evidence. I prefer to be on the side of some evidence.

The article that you link to is by Daniel B. Wallace, and it appears to predate his 2001 paper on the subject. Upon the publication of his paper in 2001, three other scholars published thorough critiques of his work. As I said in my blog post on the subject (which you will now have no problem reading since it is the same length as the article by Wallace that you just linked to, I am sure): his thesis was found to be slipshod and based on sparse evidence. It's been 16 years and he has yet to release a subsequent paper defending his thesis.

Not only does "outstanding among the apostles" fit the sense of the Greek immensely better than "esteemed by the apostles," but quite literally, every church father who commented on the passage took it as such. If that's what you call "no evidence," I just don't think there's any hope for you to see reason.

That's what happens when posters substitute "quick search on the Internet" for research! Thanks again, MsJack, for all your efforts.
_grindael
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _grindael »

The Deacons were males


Wrong. Phoebe was a Deacon as Spotlight pointed out. That's what the New Testament says.
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. ~Romans 16
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_grindael
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _grindael »

This has been a highly amusing thread.

Ms. Jack = 100
Zero = 0

There was no priesthood office of "apostle" in the New Testament. There was no priesthood office of "seventy" in the New Testament. (It was a number and it was seventy-two) That is all made up by Mormons. Ordained simply meant appointed. In Mark Chapter 3, Jesus appoints the twelve special witnesses. In the KJV it says he ORDAINS them. If that is true, then according to Mormons they would have gotten the priesthood and already HAD authority. But in Chapter 6 it says he called them two by two and gave them POWER and AUTHORITY. If they had already been ORDAINED to the priesthood in Chapter 3, why would he then give them ‘power and authority’ in Chapter 6, if they already had it in Chapter 3? (Because it was about faith and belief) This does not make sense if one believes in a priesthood by ritual. But it does if his authority is based on belief and faith.

How did this woman get ordained into the all men priesthood?

How did a woman get ordained into the priesthood?

“1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.”
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
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One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Gadianton
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Gadianton »

Zarinus wrote:You have done no such thing. All you have done is to pile up an awful lot of speculative guesswork and unlikely assumptions on top of each other to draw from them a totally unwarranted definitive conclusion.


wiki wrote:Junia or Junias (Greek: Ιουνια / Ιουνιας, Iounia[s]) was a 1st-century Christian highly regarded and complimented by apostle Paul. Paul probably refers to Junia as an apostle.[1] The consensus among most modern New Testament scholars is that Junia was a woman.[2]


speaking of expert consensus as a lot of speculative guesswork and unlikely assumptions is the mark of a crank.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _Fence Sitter »

zerinus wrote:[Well, I am not going to spend the rest of my life researching and debating you on this subject.


Translation

It is clear you know more about this subject than I do, and since I cannot support my assertion which you have destroyed, I will simply make excuses for my lack of knowledge and run away claiming victory.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_huckelberry
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _huckelberry »

MsJack wrote:
There is an abundance of evidence from antiquity of women serving as deacons and moderate evidence for them as elders, bishops, priests, and other heads of church. For example, John Chrysostom on Euodia & Synteche from Philippians 4:3: "It appears to me that these women were the heads of the church at Philippi." (Homily 13) Women in the New Testament are directly called by every church title men are called by save for elder.

I quoted a 10th century bishop who summarized the evidence for ordained women in antiquity earlier in this thread here.

spotlight ~ I'm glad you're enjoying the topic! Yes, women were very active in leadership in the early church, and Christianity was wildly popular among women because of it. Celibacy offered women freedom from the tyranny of first-century marriage with its unending cycle of pregnancy, childbirth, and subjection to one's husband. And the much-maligned household code from Ephesians 5 was actually meant to soften the authority of the Roman paterfamilias code. But as the church became a more public institution, it adopted the patriarchal mores of the wider society, and women's leadership regressed mostly to leadership of other women.

We see similar patterns in other areas of the world where Christianity is a fledgling or persecuted movement. The majority of Christian pastors in China are women, even though men far outnumber women there. They don't bother with extended debates on whether or not women can be pastors, they just do the Lord's work. I always find it hilarious watching evangelicals who oppose women's ordination try to be happy and excited for Christianity's growth in China all the while grumbling about the high number of female pastors. :lol: Churches have to grow bloated and comfortable before they can afford the luxury of handicapping ~50% of the church.

If you like this subject, I recommend Eldon Jay Epp's book on Junia or Ordained Women in the Early Church: A Documentary History by Madigan and Osiek. It's a very different world from what the Mormon church teaches about the early church for sure.


I thought your comparison to situation in China made a lot of sense and was well stated.

It appears that rules about this question were not very settled similar to rules about eating pork not being very settled. Odd that Pauls dismissal of law about kosher won out while the legal folks slowily won the day over women in authority. Though establishing the rule of men as the customarily accepted order seemed to have taken some time.
_huckelberry
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _huckelberry »

Physics Guy wrote:
I'm perfectly prepared to call Paul flat wrong on some topics; he was a man of his time, to be sure. He's a giant, though, and I'd like to think as well of him as I can. For me it sheds a different light on his pronouncements against women speaking in church, if at the same time he could so casually concede his own proudest title of apostle to a woman. It would incline me to think that the odious silent-in-church thing might have been for Paul a mere policy against offending conservative public opinion, rather than something he thought was really important. He did also urge people not to eat meat that had been sacrificed to pagan gods, even though there was really nothing wrong with eating it, just because it might shake some people's faith to see a Christian apparently accepting a pagan ritual. Of course it's still pretty thick to stop Christian women from speaking in church just to placate potential male converts, but it's arguably better than doing so on actual principle.


1Cor 14:34
"women should be silent in the churches.For they are not permitted to speak but should be subordinate as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church"

I do not have a list of who all but I have seen a number of sources state that there is good reason to think these statements are not from Paul but are a later addition by somebody wanting to add what they believed Paul should have said.

Some reasons to consider this, first earlier in the letter Paul labors through an explanation of why women when praying and prophesying in worship should ware a head covering. That is an absurd discussion if women were required to be silent.

Second, the phrases here are an interruption to the discussion of orderly interpretation of people speaking in tongues. The passage reads better without the odd addition about women being silent.

Third it observes the law as a reason which is quite odd for Paul but would be natural for some of Pauls opponents.

Fourth, it agrees in view with first Timothy which was not written by Paul.

Because I like Paul I feel glad he did not pen these particular obnoxious sentiments. That does not mean he had no culturally narrowed viewpoints but not so much here. But if people are manipulating the text then it would indicate that the idea of allowing women leadership was not seen by everybody as ok. One might think that there was some struggle over the issue in the first couple of centuries of the church.
_zerinus
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _zerinus »

huckelberry wrote:1Cor 14:34
"women should be silent in the churches.For they are not permitted to speak but should be subordinate as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church"

I do not have a list of who all but I have seen a number of sources state that there is good reason to think these statements are not from Paul but are a later addition by somebody wanting to add what they believed Paul should have said.

Some reasons to consider this, first earlier in the letter Paul labors through an explanation of why women when praying and prophesying in worship should ware a head covering. That is an absurd discussion if women were required to be silent.

Second, the phrases here are an interruption to the discussion of orderly interpretation of people speaking in tongues. The passage reads better without the odd addition about women being silent.

Third it observes the law as a reason which is quite odd for Paul but would be natural for some of Pauls opponents.

Fourth, it agrees in view with first Timothy which was not written by Paul.

Because I like Paul I feel glad he did not pen these particular obnoxious sentiments. That does not mean he had no culturally narrowed viewpoints but not so much here. But if people are manipulating the text then it would indicate that the idea of allowing women leadership was not seen by everybody as ok. One might think that there was some struggle over the issue in the first couple of centuries of the church.
He also told woman to cover up their stupid heads in church (like the Muslims!); and if they have any​ stupid questions to ask, that they should ask it of their stupid husbands at home, and not waste everybody’s time in church; and that if they were not already married, it would be best for them not to get married at all! :lol: Were those added by somebody else as well? What else was added, do you think, that we didn’t know about? And if he got all of that wrong, how can we be sure that he didn’t get the doctrine of justification wrong? :biggrin:
_MsJack
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _MsJack »

zerinus wrote:Well, I am not going to spend the rest of my life researching and debating you on this subject.

I have almost 19 years of studying this particular subject along with degrees in classics and church history. Maybe next time, instead of trying to beat me with hasty Google searches, you could just take my word for it and move on?

No, Junia was probably not one of the Twelve. Neither was Paul. Junia seems to be part of the same group of apostles in which Paul locates himself, and that's just fine by me.

Female deacons are referenced in 1 Tim. 3:10 and Romans 16:1-2, and numerous sources from the early church (some of whom have already been cited in this thread) said as much. Once again, you are in error because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God.

To all ~ I think I've expended enough time and energy on this thread and will not be commenting on 1 Cor. 14:34-36, 1 Tim. 2:8-15, 1 Cor. 11, etc. As I mentioned earlier, I plan on posting articles on all of those on my blog eventually. In the meantime, there have been many other articles on those passages by Christian egalitarians. For example:


Note: the series by Glenn Miller was what I first found and read in the late 90s that started me on the journey to learn more about Junia, so it's worth checking out.

The best overall book I would recommend for addressing these subjects is Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy edited by Ronald W. Pierce, Rebecca Merrill Groothuis, and Gordon D. Fee. It has an essay on every passage and subject that's being discussed on this thread.

And just for fun:

10 Reasons Men Should Not Be Pastors at The Junia Project

Peace.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_zerinus
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Re: Only one female speaker at General Conference this weeke

Post by _zerinus »

MsJack wrote:I have almost 19 years of studying this particular subject along with degrees in classics and church history. Maybe next time, instead of trying to beat me with hasty Google searches, you could just take my word for it and move on?
I don't give a peanut about how many years you have studied this or any other subject, or how many college degrees you have got, or how many books you have read. Don't try to browbeat me with that kind of trash. Having a college degree doesn't make anybody right, and I am not expected to retire my intellect and blindly agree with you just because you have got those things. Try those kinds of tricks on somebody else. They won't work with me. And I go by what the Bible and the word of God tells me, not by what Google tells me. The Bible (and modern LDS scripture) tells me that there were no "female Apostles," period.

No, Junia was probably not one of the Twelve.
Certainly, not probably.

Neither was Paul.
Wrong! He was not one of the original "Twelve;" but he was certainly called to the same office, which he makes clear enough in his epistles.

Junia seems to be part of the same group of apostles in which Paul locates himself, and that's just fine by me.
Rubbish, nonsense. He/she was nothing of the kind.

Female deacons are referenced in 1 Tim. 3:10 and Romans 16:1-2, and numerous sources from the early church (some of whom have already been cited in this thread) said as much. Once again, you are in error because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Females are referenced as "servants" to the church, which is OK. All church members are (or should be) "servants" to the church, which is what "deacon" in some translations means; but deacons as an ordained office in the church were reserved exclusively for males, which is what Paul in 1 Timothy 3 is referring to.

To all ~ I think I've expended enough time and energy on this thread and will not be commenting on 1 Cor. 14:34-36, 1 Tim. 2:8-15, 1 Cor. 11, etc.
A wise choice, saving yourself further embarrassment.
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