Credentials

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_dartagnan
_Emeritus
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Post by _dartagnan »

Just shows sloppy scholarship. Sloppy here, sloppy there. There are patterns.

You have demonstrated no "patterns." You point to Morris' assertion that Ritner's failure to recognize Rhodes as an Egyptologist, is "sloppy scholarship."

Hilarious.

Talk about jealousy. Ritner is more prominent and more established as a scholar than all the knuckleheads at FARMS put together.
Factual but irrelevant to the translation. So why put it in, except, of course, it shows his total anti-Mormon bias

What is so bias about it? It shows his knowledge, not bias. You're just pissed off because he mentions it and it would otherwise go ignored if all we had to rely upon were LDS publications.
And then that makes his translation suspect.

His translation is "suspect" to whom? Morris? Rhodes? You're a joke.
If he hates Mormons, wants to discredit Mormons, then a translation of the Book of Breathings can show that bias.

He doesn't hate Mormons and there is nothing wrong with his translation. It is hilarious that you would think you or Morris could correct Ritner's Egyptian.
I am not pretending to translate a document. Ritner was.

Oh so now Ritner was only "pretending"? This just gets better and better. This is exactly the kind of thing that drove me out of apologetics. I had to run across idiots like you who thought these types of responses really meant something of consequence. You pretend to care about credentials, and yet here you are treating Ritner's translation with suspicion, because some lame-brained literature professor didn't like his tone.
If as in the case with discussions with me you regularly retreat into name calling I don't take your word for it that you have bested David in anything.

I never said I "bested" him. David can admit that I have caused him to rethink his positions, and this I did without attending a single Hebrew class. That says something about the significance, or lack thereof, in Hebrew knowledge. There is an entire thread in the celestial forum where we had an elaborate debate. I never got the feeling I was out of my league, and I don't think Bokovoy thought I was either.
You just proved my point.

You have no point to prove. You're incoherent meandering waffle doesn't constitute points.
No, it wasn't apologetics where David presented his material. It was before an audience of non-LDS. You are sounding more jealous and sour grapes all the time.

And you are sounding more and more like an idiot. David's apologetic diatribes that appear at MADB are not presented as such before non-LDS audiences. I haven't even attended them and yet I know better than to believe David would ever start off his career by presenting arguments that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, before non-LDS scholars.
This is typical of people who don't have degrees and reputations to think that those that do so have sold out. Assuages their prides.

I do have degrees, but I have never sought a career teaching in American academia. Why you choose to compare me and Bokovoy is a mystery. But Bokovoy's "reputation" is 98% due to his apologetics for a struggling LDS membership who rely on him to come up with new stuff to strengthen their testimonies. Same with Daniel Peterson, who for the most part, is unknown outside LDS circles. The head of the dept at his alma mater didn't even know who he was. So what?
And who told you to fling that "lying for the Lord" line around? I think it was Walter Martin that invented it. You know, the guy who only lied about his "doctorate."

Know he didn't invent it, Mormons did. After all, they are the ones doing it. You're doing it right now. You can't stand it when people come to teh tabel with a balanced perspective of basic facts. You prefer to push them in while convicing them their feelings are what matter.
Unlike you, I can tell what is opinion and what is fact. You seem to have trouble here. Must be a big problem in dealing with the world.

Unlike you, I am smart enough to know opinion and fact are not mutually exclusive. Opinions and facts can be one in the same. You seem to have trouble here. To say X can't be a fact because it is only an opinion, is like saying a man cannot be gay because he is Mexican. You're an idiot.
Your name calling shows the weakness of your arguments. The winner in a fight is the guy whose argument is strong enough he can remain civil.

There is nothing uncivil about noting stupidity where it exists, I'm sorry. You epitomize the stupidity that LDS apologetics has become.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_charity
_Emeritus
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by _charity »

dartagnan wrote:


I don't need to respond to most of your post, since it is just personal attacks on people you evidently feel threatened by. Just a couple of notes in passing:

Question: Why did Ritner "need" to put an anti-Mormon criticism in what was supposed to be a translation? To demonstrate his "knowledge?" Or just do a drive by shooting. Too bad it richoeted and got him back.

I said "pretending to translate" but it is obvious that he used his translation as a vehicle to stick a dagger in a group he doesn't like. Not very scholarly. Pretty petty.

Your attacks on David Bokovoy sure sound like jealousy and sour grapes. You call his presenations "diatribes" and yet you admit you have never heard one. What kind of honesty is that?

Believe me, I don't compare to you to David at all. You were the one who compared yourself to him. On, no. I don't compare you to David not one little bit.

I really had to laugh when you repeated that "Daniel Petyerson is unknown oustide of Utah, and people in his own department didn't even know him." DCP is one of the best known and respected Islamic scholars in the world. And those people who didn't know him? The lame brain who called or e-mailed to ask, got the wrong department, not even knowning what DCP's field was! That was really an uff dah! A Swede explained that to me. A little dah is where you slip and fall down. And uff dah is where you slip and fall down and your pants end up around your ankles.

I think it is really laughable that a person who hates and rants and screams and calls names thinks he has a "balanced perspective" and nobody else does. And just told you that your perspective was balanced? Or did you have a warm fuzzy feeling about it?

I had no idea you really couldn't undestand the difference bewteen fact and opinion. But you don't. Your example is a mental meander. Is either being gay or being Mexican an opinion? LOL!!!! Let me make it clear for you. Saying Individual A is homosexual because he is sexually attracted only to men is a fact. Saying Individual B is homosexual because he walks funny and wears purple is an opinioin. Got it now? I don't think you are an idiot. I just think your hatred has clouded your abilities to think coherently at times.

Ihope you feel better in the morning.
_charity
_Emeritus
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by _charity »

dartagnan wrote:


I don't need to respond to most of your post, since it is just personal attacks on people you evidently feel threatened by. Just a couple of notes in passing:

Question: Why did Ritner "need" to put an anti-Mormon criticism in what was supposed to be a translation? To demonstrate his "knowledge?" Or just do a drive by shooting. Too bad it richoeted and got him back.

I said "pretending to translate" but it is obvious that he used his translation as a vehicle to stick a dagger in a group he doesn't like. Not very scholarly. Pretty petty.

Your attacks on David Bokovoy sure sound like jealousy and sour grapes. You call his presenations "diatribes" and yet you admit you have never heard one. What kind of honesty is that?

Believe me, I don't compare to you to David at all. You were the one who compared yourself to him. On, no. I don't compare you to David not one little bit.

I really had to laugh when you repeated that "Daniel Petyerson is unknown oustide of Utah, and people in his own department didn't even know him." DCP is one of the best known and respected Islamic scholars in the world. And those people who didn't know him? The lame brain who called or e-mailed to ask, got the wrong department, not even knowning what DCP's field was! That was really an uff dah! A Swede explained that to me. A little dah is where you slip and fall down. And uff dah is where you slip and fall down and your pants end up around your ankles.

I think it is really laughable that a person who hates and rants and screams and calls names thinks he has a "balanced perspective" and nobody else does. And just told you that your perspective was balanced? Or did you have a warm fuzzy feeling about it?

I had no idea you really couldn't undestand the difference bewteen fact and opinion. But you don't. Your example is a mental meander. Is either being gay or being Mexican an opinion? LOL!!!! Let me make it clear for you. Saying Individual A is homosexual because he is sexually attracted only to men is a fact. Saying Individual B is homosexual because he walks funny and wears purple is an opinioin. Got it now? I don't think you are an idiot. I just think your hatred has clouded your abilities to think coherently at times.

Ihope you feel better in the morning.
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

charity wrote:
dartagnan wrote:


I don't need to respond to most of your post, since it is just personal attacks on people you evidently feel threatened by. Just a couple of notes in passing:

Question: Why did Ritner "need" to put an anti-Mormon criticism in what was supposed to be a translation?


Was it a legitimately "anti-Mormon criticism", or was it merely a scholarly observation that happened to seem like an "attack"?

I said "pretending to translate" but it is obvious that he used his translation as a vehicle to stick a dagger in a group he doesn't like. Not very scholarly. Pretty petty.


Again, how was it "obvious" that it was an attack? Or does Mopologetics extend far beyond mere "defense," as you claimed in the other thread?

Your attacks on David Bokovoy sure sound like jealousy and sour grapes. You call his presenations "diatribes" and yet you admit you have never heard one. What kind of honesty is that?


Kevin was clearly talking about two separate and distinct kinds of presentations:
1) Actual, real, scholarly presentations that will have a direct bearing on Bokovoy's academic career.
2) Purely apologetic "presentations" delivered to the choir at MAD/FAIR.

Kevin is saying that the latter are "diatribes." I agree that David would be insane to try and posit actual, real LDS claims in a secular academic setting. I have documented all of this more fully in my thread entitled, "DCP Admits to LDS Academic Embarrassment."

I really had to laugh when you repeated that "Daniel Petyerson is unknown oustide of Utah, and people in his own department didn't even know him." DCP is one of the best known and respected Islamic scholars in the world. And those people who didn't know him? The lame brain who called or e-mailed to ask, got the wrong department, not even knowning what DCP's field was! That was really an uff dah! A Swede explained that to me. A little dah is where you slip and fall down. And uff dah is where you slip and fall down and your pants end up around your ankles.


I assume you're referring to Tal Bachman's inquiry into DCP's status as a scholar of Islam/Arab Studies. Did Tal not contact the correct department? If so, I'd love to see a CFR from you. Otherwise, it seems *you* will be guilty of the "uff dah!" Even if you don't come up with the proof, it is transparently obvious that DCP devotes the bulk of his working time to LDS apologetics.
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am

Post by _ludwigm »

Quote No.1 from charity on another thread

charity wrote:
ludwigm wrote:I didn't ever take the sacrament. (I know that there are more sacraments and the Lords Supper is only one of them and - among other things - Joseph Smith didn't know this.)


Sorry. You don't know what Joseph Smith knew.


Quote No.2 from charity

charity wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Let me ask you a question. Was joseph smith wrong in his belief in the hemispheric model?

If he believed in the hemispheric model, he was probably wrong. (We still don't know for sure where Zarahemla was, and I am willing to take the information when it comes in and go with that.)

I am sure there were lots of things Joseph Smith didn't know, considering his limited educaitonal opportunities. But when he said God revealed something to him, he was never wrong. And he never said that God told him where Zarahemla was.


Speshul people are privileged to know what Joseph Smith knew and what not.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_charity
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by _charity »

ludwigm wrote:
Speshul people are privileged to know what Joseph Smith knew and what not.


Anyone can know the important things that Joseph Smith knew. Humility, the willingness to listen to the Spirit speak to him, and you, too, can be privileged.
_moksha
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

moksha wrote: Hey, I drank the water in Tijuana and did not have the runs. Can these learned Gentlemen match that?


Hey, get real Moksha. Just wait till your daughter drags you to McDonalds again and see the the end result.

Besides, you realize that these learned apologists are laboring under a burden of having to prove an argument that may be on shakey ground to begin with, rather than being like youwith the luxury of deciding if it makes sense before you engage in any defense. Therefore their task is harder and perhaps more noble.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am

Post by _ludwigm »

charity wrote:
ludwigm wrote:Speshul people are privileged to know what Joseph Smith knew and what not.

Anyone can know the important things that Joseph Smith knew. Humility, the willingness to listen to the Spirit speak to him, and you, too, can be privileged.

Can I be privileged? No, thank You.
I used to be a honest investigator for six years. After this, I decided, that - to paraphrase Brigham Young - this is not the place.

As usual, You twisted my comment.
I don't know and don't want to know and don't care, what did - allegedly - Joseph Smith know. He, himself, said "no man knows my history".
All the time, I spake about the important things that Joseph Smith didn't know.
You did speak about that, even You didn't quote it.
charity wrote:I am sure there were lots of things Joseph Smith didn't know, considering his limited educaitonal opportunities.


The Spirit - I don't know what is it, You do know it - doesn't exist. I can not listen to he/she/it.

Humility is not my business. It is reserved to the indoctrinated ones. Scientologists, JWs, moslims, moonies, koreshians, I-dont-know-what-ians, and last but not least thousands type of christians. Mormons inclusive or exclusive - take Your pick.

[hehe mode] - I have spoken. - [/hehe mode]

-------------------------------------------------
To be serious.
Please Charity, don't take this as personal attack. It is not. It is person-independent.
I have said Joseph Smith didn't know the meaning of the word "sacrament". Anyway, he (and since then all Mormons) use it incorrectly.
I don't know why. If one doesn't know the meaning a certain word, this type of misuse can happen. If one know the meaning but maliciously distorts, it is a little worse case.
I have talked about one special thing what Joseph Smith didn't know.
You, in Your answer, didn't handle the "sacrament" word, which was the essence of my comment.
You have said what You said.
And a few days later, You have talked about lots of things Joseph Smith didn't know.

Lev. 19: 35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Deut. 25: 14 Thou shalt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

charity wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote:Charity, I can't help but intrude. You said, into which I inject my comments in bold:

"... Instead, (people are) told that the Mormon Church is different because it is led by God through prophets RM: This is simply a subjective statement. There is absolutely no credible evidence that this is true. who would never lead the Church astray. RM: How is one to understand "astray"? Continuing revelation was never understood as an attempt to turn old doctrine completely on its head. You guys are abusing LDS history to suit your own apologetic agenda, which is essentially to try defending the untenable. RM: And what is your defence of the "untenable" as others view your positions?



I didn't say that. Kevin (dartagnan) said it. I know that the quote thing gets confusing.

Roger Morrison wrote:
Charity surely you are not in ignorance of the obvious changes in LDS policies, practices, rituals and doctrines that have influenced LDS attitudes and life styles today to differ considerably from the past. If it is not "ignorance" then it must be 'denial'. I'm not sure which of the two is to be preferred? Please advise. Roger


I know that there have been changes in policies, practices, rituals and doctrine. This is a living, dynamic Church, with living prohpets and continuing revelation. That is the whole purpose. I don't know that we would agree on where the changes came. If you were to say there were changes in the endowment, I would say there were changes in the presentaiton of the endowment, for instance.


Thanks Charity, you must be one busy-bee ;-) I hope you 'type' faster than me. Yes, the "quote thing" can be VERY confusing. Blaming or crediting unduly. We should all take more pains to be accurate. JAK is one of the best in keeping things straight. Then drew sarcasm for doing so... Gotta wonder...

"This is a living dynamic Church...." A nice clause but, really not very meaningful. With no disrespect, cancer has the same attributes. More to the point: The church has living leaders who, as any good CEOs would do, attempt to keep current in as many matters as possible while maintaining corporate objectives.

In so doing, Corporations/Institutions often come face-to-face with closet-skeltons. It is at this point that their integrity is called to the table, so-to-speak. Case in point: Australia has within the past few days issued an official apology to the indiginous Aboriginies of that continent. Setting an example for others, be they Parents, Corporations, Institutions or Nations. The RCC recently did the same re Galileo. And the LDS has quietly in the past reinstituted JD Lee and Hubert Hubner (sp?) the German youth ex'd during WWII for defying the Nazis.

As i read most of the exchanges between parties here, the anger could very easily be resolved IF/WHEN the Mormon Church demonstrates ITS humility by acknowledging the absence of truth in many of its legends, the suppositions in many of its claims, and that its 'authority' is no more, nor less, than any other self-made entity.

To your credit you stated agreement that Joseph Smith was limited by his limited education. As we all are. So why not take it from there as it naturally flows.

(Except for those in denial who seem to think, as ??? "...my country, (Church) right or wrong..." and believe there is something noble in going down with the ship.)

There ain't, Sis. Warm regards, Roger
_Blixa
_Emeritus
Posts: 8381
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:45 pm

Post by _Blixa »

>snip<

sorry computer malfunction...
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
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