Something Troubling in Sunday School

[_Darth J]

Stemelbow---

When slavery was practiced in the United States, the bases for being able to purchase a human being as chattel were:

1. being a negro;
2. ?

In the LDS Church prior to 1979, the bases for an otherwise worthy male not to be able to hold the priesthood were:

1. being a negro;
2. ?

In the LDS Church in 2011, the bases for an otherwise worthy member being categorically denied from holding the priesthood are:

1. being a female;
2. ?

[_Buffalo]

Stem, if you take a deep breath and think about it I think you'll find that discrimination is an essential component of both.

Slavery extends beyond the discrimination of race. Its a whole other practice. Indeed, as I said, racism can be present without slavery. Slavery too can be present without racism. Why this is such a tough issue for you two to grasp is troubling. They are two different kinds. They are not equal. To equate women not getting the priesthood to slavery is absurd, and disrespectful.

Agree to disagree? or put more foot in your mouth? Your choice.

Slavery in America was a practice driven by racism. Look what happened after slavery was outlawed. Whites still tried to stick it to blacks every chance they could. That's racism.

This shouldn't be so difficult to grasp.

[_consiglieri]

This shouldn't be so difficult to grasp.

When otherwise intelligent people like Stem refuse to understand an obvious point, I tend to think there is an underlying agenda at work.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Buffalo]

This shouldn't be so difficult to grasp.

When otherwise intelligent people like Stem refuse to understand an obvious point, I tend to think there is an underlying agenda at work.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think Stem is sensitive to issues like slavery and sexism. He thinks that the priesthood ban was wrong, and I suspect he'd support extending the priesthood to women. But he still wants to view institutional Mormonism as fundamentally good and inspired, so I think this causes him some cognitive dissonance. If he didn't care about equal rights, it wouldn't bother him.

My armchair psych evaluation.

[_stemelbow]

I think Stem is sensitive to issues like slavery and sexism. He thinks that the priesthood ban was wrong, and I suspect he'd support extending the priesthood to women. But he still wants to view institutional Mormonism as fundamentally good and inspired, so I think this causes him some cognitive dissonance. If he didn't care about equal rights, it wouldn't bother him.

My armchair psych evaluation.

I appreciate you fellas trying to evaluate me. Its cool. I think you're wrong. I just find it objectionable to liken slavery and its ill effects with women not getting the priesthood in the Church. I find it disrespectful and as I've said, quite frankly absurd. Of course you guys and your buddies don't agree with that, but that's to be expected (there I too can pronouncement some elements of the why's of why you guys don't get it.)

Anyway, overall, its too bad. To think of slavery reminds me of all the evil stories, all the terrible things that happened when slavery was okay. To think of women not getting the priesthood, while unfortunate and kind of weird, does not cause a ton of modern stories of how women, by women not receiving the priesthood, are mistreated just as slaves were back in the day. In this, I find the comparison disrespectful and I'm quite surprised people who claim to be far more enlightened than LDS folks (which I know consig is LDS, but I mean other LDS folks) will take the view that there is comparison to be made. Really, truly, there's no comparison here. That woman in Consig's ward, who expressed her opinion, is in no similar situation that a slave was in. I mean just wow.

I get why you guys are taking this position. You need to. It helps your case against the Church. But reasonably thinking. It can't be maintained.

[_Buffalo]

I think Stem is sensitive to issues like slavery and sexism. He thinks that the priesthood ban was wrong, and I suspect he'd support extending the priesthood to women. But he still wants to view institutional Mormonism as fundamentally good and inspired, so I think this causes him some cognitive dissonance. If he didn't care about equal rights, it wouldn't bother him.

My armchair psych evaluation.

I appreciate you fellas trying to evaluate me. Its cool. I think you're wrong. I just find it objectionable to liken slavery and its ill effects with women not getting the priesthood in the Church. I find it disrespectful and as I've said, quite frankly absurd. Of course you guys and your buddies don't agree with that, but that's to be expected (there I too can pronouncement some elements of the why's of why you guys don't get it.)

Anyway, overall, its too bad. To think of slavery reminds me of all the evil stories, all the terrible things that happened when slavery was okay. To think of women not getting the priesthood, while unfortunate and kind of weird, does not cause a ton of modern stories of how women, by women not receiving the priesthood, are mistreated just as slaves were back in the day. In this, I find the comparison disrespectful and I'm quite surprised people who claim to be far more enlightened than LDS folks (which I know consig is LDS, but I mean other LDS folks) will take the view that there is comparison to be made. Really, truly, there's no comparison here. That woman in Consig's ward, who expressed her opinion, is in no similar situation that a slave was in. I mean just wow.

I get why you guys are taking this position. You need to. It helps your case against the Church. But reasonably thinking. It can't be maintained.

Stem, what about slavery and Jim Crow laws. Any connection there?

[_stemelbow]

Stem, what about slavery and Jim Crow laws. Any connection there?

I'm not followign you don't this rabbit trail, buffalo. if you have a deflection that may make it appear your guys' opinion here ain't so bad, then by all means make it. I'm personally not fond of the deflections though.

[_Buffalo]

Stem, what about slavery and Jim Crow laws. Any connection there?

I'm not followign you don't this rabbit trail, buffalo. if you have a deflection that may make it appear your guys' opinion here ain't so bad, then by all means make it. I'm personally not fond of the deflections though.

It's not a deflection. I'm really not getting your difficulty here. It's simple - slavery and Jim Crow were both based on racism against blacks. Jim Crow is an echo from slave times. Under Jim Crow, blacks were banned from doing certain things - like going to certain restaurants, marrying certain people, sitting in certain seats, etc.

How is that night and day different from banning women from the priesthood?

[_jon]

Here's what the Prophet Gordon Hinckley had to say on the matter:

''Husbands, love and treasure your wives. They are your most precious possessions.''

Dictionary definition of 'possession'.
pos·ses·sion - noun
1. The state of having, owning, or controlling something.
2. Visible power or control over something

Dictionary definition of 'slavery'.
slav·er·y
The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder

When the Prophet speaks the thinking has been done...

[_just me]

I think Stem is sensitive to issues like slavery and sexism. He thinks that the priesthood ban was wrong, and I suspect he'd support extending the priesthood to women. But he still wants to view institutional Mormonism as fundamentally good and inspired, so I think this causes him some cognitive dissonance. If he didn't care about equal rights, it wouldn't bother him.

My armchair psych evaluation.

I appreciate you fellas trying to evaluate me. Its cool. I think you're wrong. I just find it objectionable to liken slavery and its ill effects with women not getting the priesthood in the Church. I find it disrespectful and as I've said, quite frankly absurd. Of course you guys and your buddies don't agree with that, but that's to be expected (there I too can pronouncement some elements of the why's of why you guys don't get it.)

Anyway, overall, its too bad. To think of slavery reminds me of all the evil stories, all the terrible things that happened when slavery was okay. To think of women not getting the priesthood, while unfortunate and kind of weird, does not cause a ton of modern stories of how women, by women not receiving the priesthood, are mistreated just as slaves were back in the day. In this, I find the comparison disrespectful and I'm quite surprised people who claim to be far more enlightened than LDS folks (which I know consig is LDS, but I mean other LDS folks) will take the view that there is comparison to be made. Really, truly, there's no comparison here. That woman in Consig's ward, who expressed her opinion, is in no similar situation that a slave was in. I mean just wow.

I get why you guys are taking this position. You need to. It helps your case against the Church. But reasonably thinking. It can't be maintained.

Stem, does that woman (or any LDS woman) have the power to change her situation re: priesthood? Can a woman in the church bring about her own ordination to the priesthood?