Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

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_Yoda

Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Yoda »

Drifting wrote:
liz3564 wrote:I think that it is beneficial to discuss these types of solutions in groups like this and take suggestions back to our home ward bishops. This is OUR Church. We have the power, and I think responsibility to set things up locally so that our children can be safe.


Liz, I agree 100%. but how many members/wards do you think feel as empowered to act as you do? I would guess at not very many. In my experience the majority of members and local leaders are sheep like. They are conditioned to do as they are told, to follow the Prophet (Relief Society even have a weekly group chant about this), comply with the handbook, tick the boxes etc. I think that's one of the reasons things like this tragedy occur. The Church does not encourage questioning, challenging, development of practice and procedure. Rather it promotes trust in and compliance to the Priesthood and the Holy Ghost for direction and decision making.

The ones that buck the trend by challenging and questioning are usually seen as trouble makers and are dealt with accordingly.

Then it is up to us to change that perception. Believe me, if my kids are at stake, I am more than willing to risk being labeled a trouble maker.
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Drifting »

liz3564 wrote:Believe me, if my kids are at stake, I am more than willing to risk being labeled a trouble maker.


I think it is safe to assume, given the event of the OP, that your kids are indeed at stake and that the Holy Ghost isn't a reliable form of protection for them (I suspect you are though!).
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting wrote:
liz3564 wrote:I think that it is beneficial to discuss these types of solutions in groups like this and take suggestions back to our home ward bishops. This is OUR Church. We have the power, and I think responsibility to set things up locally so that our children can be safe.


Liz, I agree 100%. but how many members/wards do you think feel as empowered to act as you do? I would guess at not very many. In my experience the majority of members and local leaders are sheep like. They are conditioned to do as they are told, to follow the Prophet (Relief Society even have a weekly group chant about this), comply with the handbook, tick the boxes etc. I think that's one of the reasons things like this tragedy occur. The Church does not encourage questioning, challenging, development of practice and procedure. Rather it promotes trust in and compliance to the Priesthood and the Holy Ghost for direction and decision making.

The ones that buck the trend by challenging and questioning are usually seen as trouble makers and are dealt with accordingly.


I would like to add a few comments. The Holy Spirit is not a guide for us in our daily life. He is a witness to truth. This aids us on our spiritual walk. We are to learn here in the flesh and part of that is how to come together in times of trouble and do our best on fixing things and preventing what we can. Although I have cast off the world I have a great responsibility to help all those I meet along my walk in the flesh. One of the things we should always do is to trust but verify. All to often we are stretched to thin to do all that we should, in these times we should pull back from events and activities to ensure safety. This is a hard thing to decide. It is easy to say yes and hard to say no. We should say no more often than we do.

I don't understand why people treat the Holy Spirit as a lookout. That is not His job.

Christ killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Paul killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Joseph Smith killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?

Where did this idea come from?
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
I would like to add a few comments. The Holy Spirit is not a guide for us in our daily life. He is a witness to truth. This aids us on our spiritual walk. We are to learn here in the flesh and part of that is how to come together in times of trouble and do our best on fixing things and preventing what we can. Although I have cast off the world I have a great responsibility to help all those I meet along my walk in the flesh. One of the things we should always do is to trust but verify. All to often we are stretched to thin to do all that we should, in these times we should pull back from events and activities to ensure safety. This is a hard thing to decide. It is easy to say yes and hard to say no. We should say no more often than we do.

I don't understand why people treat the Holy Spirit as a lookout. That is not His job.

Christ killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Paul killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Joseph Smith killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?

Where did this idea come from?


From Jonah's earlier post...

“One of my earliest childhood recollections is of riding a horse through an apple orchard. The horse was tame and well broken, and I felt at home in the saddle. But one day something frightened my mount, and he bolted through the orchard. I was swept from the saddle by the overhanging limbs, and one leg slipped down through the stirrup.”

I desperately hung to an almost broken leather strap that a cowboy uses to tie a [rope] to his saddle. My weight should have broken the strap, but somehow it held for the moment. Another lunge or two of the stampeding horse would have broken the strap or wrenched it from my hands and left me to be dragged to injury or death with my foot entangled in the stirrup.

Suddenly the horse stopped, and I became aware that someone was holding the bridle tightly and attempting to calm the quivering animal. Almost immediately I was snatched up into the arms of my father. What had happened? What had brought my father to my rescue in the split second before I slipped beneath the hoofs of my panic-driven horse?

My father had been sitting in the house reading the newspaper when the Spirit [the Holy Ghost] whispered to him, ‘Run out into the orchard!’ Without a moment’s hesitation, not waiting to learn why or for what reason, my father ran. Finding himself in the orchard without knowing why he was there, he saw the galloping horse and thought, I must stop this horse. He did so and found me. And that is how I was saved from serious injury or possible death” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Hearken to the Spirit,” Friend, Sept. 1972, p. 10).
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Franktalk
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Franktalk »

Drifting,

For each one of those I can write a thousand in which the Holy Spirit does not interfere. I would ask about the saved boy just what happened later in life that God spared his life so he could perform a task that Father had planned from the beginning of time. How can we know when the Holy Spirit will intervene and when He will not?

Since we do not know we must do our best with the assumption that we are on our own.

The Holy Spirit has saved my life more than once. To what end I do not know. But when called I will answer the call and do as I am directed. It is possible that I have already done what I have been sent here to do. Who knows, maybe it is this post.
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:Drifting,

For each one of those I can write a thousand in which the Holy Spirit does not interfere. I would ask about the saved boy just what happened later in life that God spared his life so he could perform a task that Father had planned from the beginning of time. How can we know when the Holy Spirit will intervene and when He will not?

Since we do not know we must do our best with the assumption that we are on our own.

The Holy Spirit has saved my life more than once. To what end I do not know. But when called I will answer the call and do as I am directed. It is possible that I have already done what I have been sent here to do. Who knows, maybe it is this post.


So you accept that the Holy Ghost can intervene, but must therefore have chosen not to in the event of the OP.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _sock puppet »

Hi, liz,

Your legal question probably is more in line with Darth J's expertise than mine. But I'll explain how I would see it.

The area of the law that would be implicated would be torts. To succeed in a suit, the abuse victim's attorney would need to identify and prove to the jury:

1-a duty by LDSC and/or bishop
2-a breach of the duty
3-the little girl suffered damages (that would be the easy point to prove), and
4-those damages are the 'proximate result' of the breach of the duty.

##1 and 2, duty and breach. Those are the hard parts of this case. We all have a legal duty to act in ways that do not create an undue risk of harm to others. The greater the risk, the greater our duty to be careful that others are not harmed from our actions. My walking through a restaurant does not pose that much of a risk of harm to others, as does driving a 3,000 lbs. car at 75 miles an hour on a freeway. I have a greater duty of care to avoid harm to others when driving that care than when walking through the restaurant--but I yet have some level of care that I must exercise even while walking through the restaurant.

LDSC created the context and environment of the Sunday School class, an adult teacher, and parents wanting to see that their child attends the class. LDSC created the context and environment of the bishop selecting who the adult teacher would be, what would/would not be asked in the bishop's interview, the dynamics of the ward sustaining (and possibly objecting) to the calling of the adult as a teacher, and under what circumstances and compunctions another ward member would be inclined to notify the bishop if the ward member spotted something suspicious. So, that action of creating those contexts and environments involves a duty of care on the part of LDSC. The legal question for any institution creating such contexts and environments, did LDSC take reasonable steps to protect others (including this little girl) from harm given the level of risk?

As our society has become increasingly aware of adult sexual abuse of children, and specifically the LDSC situations, LDSC's legal duty of care has increased as well. Given the Boy Scout cases involving LDSC, it is legally required to take extra care now knowing that such problems and abuse has taken place in the adult-children activity situations. Has LDSC taken reasonable steps of heightening the care it is taking to avoid this egregious, and heightening, risk of harm? For example, while other institutions in our society are taken the steps that Jersey Girl outlined to prevent an adult from being alone with a child, has LDSC lagged behind in this regard?

These are questions that the jury would have to consider and decide.

For the bishop, he shares that duty with LDSC as its functionary in this situation. As LDSC's representative, what he might have specifically known about the perp's background--both when extending the calling and later as he continued in it--is crucial. "What did he know and when did he know it?" The law is all about holding people responsible if they did not act appropriately in light of the information they had or was reasonably available to them. But another question is important. What steps if any did the bishop take upon learning of problem behavior by Ryan Whittaker? If there was no reason for the bishop to be suspicious until after the entire matter broke public, and then he reported it to the civil authorities, the bishop is probably not legally liable. The only possible question of him is why did you put a man in that classroom with those young children rather than a woman, given that sexual predatory practices are more likely among men?

Even if the bishop is exonerated, LDSC yet created the contexts and environments that could be problematic. Suppose that two members of the ward had reason to suspect pedophilia tendencies by Whittaker, but kept silent during the sustaining of the calling process and later never mentioned anything to the bishop? See Drifting's observations here. They might explain that dissent is not encouraged in LDSC, and so is assuming that the bishop already knows what a member likely knows. There is, in the LDSC scheme of things, the concept of repentance, after all.

What if the bishop was aware of some untoward conduct by Whittaker, inappropriate towards children, maybe hints of sexual overtones, but nothing that rose to the level of required to be reported to civil authorities. The bishop learned of this through Whittaker's confession, or contacted him for a repentance process after learning of it independently of confession, but the bishop thought Whittaker has successfully repented and was 'cleansed' of these bad thoughts and flirting actions, and so put Whittaker back in the proverbial candy store? I think he'd have problems.

##3 and 4 (if ##1 and 2 are established to the jury's satisfaction) would be easy. No doubt the little girl was damaged, and a significant cause-and-effect relates it to the duty and breach by LDSC and the bishop (if ##1 and 2 are so found). Actual monetary damages would include the cost of medical and counseling services. The jury would also be able to assess pain and suffering damages.

Of course, if the perp, attorney Ryan Whittaker, has substantial assets, he'd be a much easier target to establish legal liability against.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Chap »

Franktalk wrote:The Holy Spirit has saved my life more than once. To what end I do not know. But when called I will answer the call and do as I am directed. It is possible that I have already done what I have been sent here to do. Who knows, maybe it is this post.


Somehow I don't think it is.

At least, you'd better hope not. Otherwise be very careful crossing the road from now on.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _sock puppet »

Drifting wrote:In my experience the majority of members and local leaders are sheep like. They are conditioned to do as they are told, to follow the Prophet (Relief Society even have a weekly group chant about this), comply with the handbook, tick the boxes etc.

Is this for real, a chant weekly recited in Relief Society about following the prophet?

Lady TBMs and attending NOMs, do you participate in this chant?
_Yoda

Re: Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

Post by _Yoda »

sock puppet wrote:
Drifting wrote:In my experience the majority of members and local leaders are sheep like. They are conditioned to do as they are told, to follow the Prophet (Relief Society even have a weekly group chant about this), comply with the handbook, tick the boxes etc.

Is this for real, a chant weekly recited in Relief Society about following the prophet?

Lady TBMs and attending NOMs, do you participate in this chant?


I vaguely recall the Relief Society saying a "Sacrament Gem" type statement at the beginning of R.S. meeting. It happpened shortly after the Young Women started reciting the Young Women values statement during YW (which I also find creepy and cultish).

This little statement that was spoken at the beginning of Relief Society meetings only happened for a few weeks, and then just disappeared. At least in our ward, it is not recited. Now, please keep in mind that I am currently in Primary during 3rd hour. However, I taught Relief Society about a year ago, and the recitation was not happening at that tiime.

by the way, thank you so much for taking the time to explain the legal ramifications regarding this case in the OP.

It sounds like the Church, and possibly the Bishop, could be in some legal trouble, if the family decided to pursue this.

I hope they do.
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