Guilt and Denial

[_Runtu]

We can attempt it, but no one lives the commandments perfectly, except Jesus. That's the whole point of the Atonement. If you can read the Bible without seeing God's mercy, I really don't know what to say to you.

And yet some (here) read the Bible and only see (simplistically) God's cruelty. They seem to be given a free pass.

The difference to me is that those who see only God's cruelty tend to be unbelievers, so it seems pointless to call them on it. In this instance, we have a believer who can't see God's mercy in the Bible. That, to me, is strange and sad, so much so that I commented on it.

[_Buffalo]

Grace is given to all (Gift/Free). :)

None of us can (or will ever be able to) earn Grace.

Examples/Teachings of Grace and Love (The entire meaning of the New Testament) can be found all over the New Testament.

Grace is the ultimate gift (smothered with the purest form of love) given by the only one capable of giving such a precious gift.


The sermon has now ended. Go in peace and sin no more. :)

Ceeboo

Now, the grace concept is more from Paul than Jesus. Jesus was a works man (but not to the same extreme extent as the LDS church). But Paul's system seems to work better for the well being and happiness of believers. :)

[_asbestosman]

Still waiting for the study that shows people benefit from guilt by becoming more loving and rely on god more.
We already know that more guilt doesn't lead to better behavior.

I don't know that it does. However, it seems to me that some of the nicest people I know are those who have greatly suffered (like sexual abuse). It seems like a cruel irony that some of the nicest, most innocent people are those who suffer and have suffered the most. I don't know what burden of guilt they do or do not bear (they shouldn't bear any), but I wonder sometimes. Regardless, I don't think the ends justifies the means--certainly not in that case.

[_stemelbow]

Still waiting for the study that shows people benefit from guilt by becoming more loving and rely on god more.
We already know that more guilt doesn't lead to better behavior.

I don't even know what you are talking about. I didn't say anything about any study. And I didn't say anything about "more guilt" whatever that is referring to...

[_Runtu]

I remember the first room I went into after saying goodbye to my parents in the MTC. It was a little meeting that was exclusively a guilt trip about not confessing previous sins. Then they sent us straight to our first worthiness interview. Fun stuff. ONly myself and one other guy came out not having shed tears.

I remember that, too. The MTC was all about guilt and confessing unresolved sins. I wracked my brain to try and remember anything I'd forgotten to confess, and I still felt guilty. I guess what sticks with me is that, although I was quite innocent as a child and teenager, I still felt burdened with guilt and inadequacy. I think I understand why, but it's not because LDS standards were higher.

I don't know why it was such a relief to find this morning that, despite what I've been told, I'm not alone in feeling that guilt. It's like a light has turned on for me.

[_asbestosman]

Now, the grace concept is more from Paul than Jesus. Jesus was a works man (but not to the same extreme extent as the LDS church). But Paul's system seems to work better for the well being and happiness of believers. :)

I often like reading Paul, but he seemed to have some hangups on women, gays, and sex in general. So, I'm not really sure Paul is better for the happiness of believers--at least as far as guilt is concerned. Still, I can't deny that grace is emphasized by Paul.

[_Runtu]

I don't know that it does. However, it seems to me that some of the nicest people I know are those who have greatly suffered (like sexual abuse). It seems like a cruel irony that some of the nicest, most innocent people are those who suffer and have suffered the most. I don't know what burden of guilt they do or do not bear (they shouldn't bear any), but I wonder sometimes. Regardless, I don't think the ends justifies the means--certainly not in that case.

Another reason you're one of my favorite posters, abman. Well said.

[_stemelbow]

You need to learn to read better.

Look, Themis, nobody said what you attributed to any apologists on this thread. This cop out gets tiring. I read fine.

I never said all apologists did I.

I never said you said all apologists. I'm just saying don't complain about all apologists based on something I did not say.

Also the subject is very much about the church teaching/emphasizing guilt more then other religions and whether it is healthy.

Good 'nuff. It surely ain't about complaining about apologists and strawmen, huh?

[_just me]

Still waiting for the study that shows people benefit from guilt by becoming more loving and rely on god more.
We already know that more guilt doesn't lead to better behavior.

I don't know that it does. However, it seems to me that some of the nicest people I know are those who have greatly suffered (like sexual abuse). It seems like a cruel irony that some of the nicest, most innocent people are those who suffer and have suffered the most. I don't know what burden of guilt they do or do not bear (they shouldn't bear any), but I wonder sometimes. Regardless, I don't think the ends justifies the means--certainly not in that case.

Thank you for this. I agree that the end does not justify the means. Others might disagree.

[_Runtu]

Some interesting graphics from the study:



It's fascinating that there is little difference in behavior between religious and non-religious people. I wouldn't have expected that.

There is, however a big difference in levels of guilt depending on religious belief:



I would not have guessed, either, that Mormons feel significantly more guilty than Muslims.